To wonder why statues of historical figures are being torn down

[Rosebyanothername19]

But no one is addressing the issues of modern day slavery and child labour? Surely slavery is slavery and needs to be wiped out. The current movement is Black Lives Matter due to inequality and excessive violence by police at the moment which needs to change, so why attack historic statues?

My husband and I were just talking about it and thought I'd ask. We may have missed something. I will admit that I haven't been watching/reading the news excessively.

Just to note, I fully support BLM and I'm not trying to goad or be disrespectful.

I think a lot of people are rather confused right now. They have no idea of the 'crimes', so are getting angry at potential removal.

Slave traders... People understand.

I understand that's it's easy but it's also vandalism. Why not put plaques on the statues saying what they did to earn their wealth and commemoratimg the people who lost their lives to make it happen. Effectively like putting them in the permanent stocks.
They tried this with the one in Bristol but spent years failing to agree the wording of the plaque.

Also, I think telling black folk "yeah, we'll deal with the racism in our society, just as soon as you solve any ongoing ills around the world" is pretty unreasonable.

@Rosebyanothername19

I understand that's it's easy but it's also vandalism. Why not put plaques on the statues saying what they did to earn their wealth and commemoratimg the people who lost their lives to make it happen. Effectively like putting them in the permanent stocks. I know the two aren't mutually exclusive. It just annoys me when I see protesters talking about slavery whilst filming on phones and wearing clothes most probably made by modern day slaves.

It turns out that local people had in fact been petitioning for a change to the plaque under the Bristol statue for ages and it had been blocked by local government. Public protest and people taking the matter into their own hands is what happens, and has always been what eventually happens, when the public feel they have no voice with their governing body.

@GreytExpectations it cant become institutionalised if it is called out and the institutions responsible are held accountable surely? I have read lots of stories of racism which have made me incredibly angry but all they ever say is 'I once had an interview at a firm...' or 'At my former company I was in a meeting...' why does no one name names and hold these places/people accountable?

@hammeringinmyhead why cant we call out the NHS for that? That's a terrible statistic! What is to stop that issue being raised and a demand for change. Its specific enough that it can be quantified and progress and improvement recorded and published. It's a win win for everyone surely?

[quote Rosebyanothername19]@GreytExpectations it cant become institutionalised if it is called out and the institutions responsible are held accountable surely? I have read lots of stories of racism which have made me incredibly angry but all they ever say is 'I once had an interview at a firm...' or 'At my former company I was in a meeting...' why does no one name names and hold these places/people accountable?[/quote]
Because its bigger than that. Do you really think its easy for a black person to call out a company for racism? And again, you need to do some research if you believe institutionalised racism can be simplified down to specific organisations. I suggest you do a quick Google search. Or for something more detailed read "Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race"

@Rosebyanothername19 here, the below may help you grasp the concept a bit better:

“Systemic racism”, or “institutional racism”, refers to how ideas of white superiority are captured in everyday thinking at a systems level: taking in the big picture of how society operates, rather than looking at one-on-one interactions.

These systems can include laws and regulations, but also unquestioned social systems. Systemic racism can stem from education, hiring practices or access.

@LlamaHammock it's not the case of telling someone else to deal with the issue. It's something we should all be dealing with. I'm saying that if you want to go after slavers, maybe start with the ones still alive and active...

[quote Rosebyanothername19]@hammeringinmyhead why cant we call out the NHS for that? That's a terrible statistic! What is to stop that issue being raised and a demand for change. Its specific enough that it can be quantified and progress and improvement recorded and published. It's a win win for everyone surely?[/quote]
An organisation called fiveXmore is campaigning, and it's gaining incredible traction due to all the publicity. White women are promoting it on their social media. It's all tied in to the BLM movement. The point is, people weren't listening to black voices and now they are because white voices are joining the cause. It's unfortunate it has to be that way, but it's helping. Part of this is removing statues of slave traders in solidarity.

How far do you think a protest of black people against racist attitudes in maternity care would have got? The study was published last year and met with a collective shrug.

And again - past slavery such as Colston's deeds was based on a belief in white superiority over, specifically, the slaves who came from Africa hence the BLM connection. I'm not sure why you're assuming modern slaves are black?

@GreytExpectations
'unquestioned social systems' can only be present for as long as they aren't questioned surely?

So if everyone starts questioning and pointing out specific cases then eventually it will be eradicated.

I fully appreciate that I have not personally had any experience of racism however, so I will do some more reading.

*'unquestioned social systems' can only be present for as long as they aren't questioned surely?

So if everyone starts questioning and pointing out specific cases then eventually it will be eradicated.*

Unfortunately if it were that easy we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now. BAME people have tried calling organisations out, it's not worked because institutionalised racism can't be tackled at an individual level.

@hammeringinmyhead I'm not at all. Same as I'm not assuming that all black people are descended from slaves.

I suppose ending in-country racism and police brutality seems easier than changing our capitalist global economic system. It's a bit like climate change. We know it's happening, it will kill millions in the next few decades and possibly end all life on this planet but doing anything about it is in the too hard basket as it's impossible to imagine the end of capitalism.

I don't see the blm movement uniquely hypocritical in this regard, if everyone really thought about modern day slavery and cared, they wouldn't be able to do anything else - yet we all are here doing other things.

@hammeringinmyhead with regards to fiveXmore and their campaign, the media is partly responsible for this. The crisis must not have fit their directive. It is disgraceful and needs to be addressed.

[quote Rosebyanothername19]@hammeringinmyhead I'm not at all. Same as I'm not assuming that all black people are descended from slaves.[/quote]
So... are you are arguing that the BLM protestors should not be removing statues of people who murdered people due to racism because white European women are sex trafficked and there are sweatshops in India?

Of course all black people aren't descended from slaves, but they generally have African ancestry. You're veering dangerously into "All lives matter" territory.

@hammeringinmyhead no I'm arguing that vandalism and violence of any kind, by anyone is detracting from the movement, not aiding it.

Why are you comparing/combining slavery with modern day slavery? They are two completely different issues and surely, surely you realise this?
You seem to care more about a cold metal statue being damaged than hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people being stolen, beaten, raped, abused, enslaved and the next 20 generations of their offspring still suffering under the legacy of slavers. You really believe these statues deserve to stand? The statues mean fuck all to anybody. Their descendants are ashamed of them (although still spend their money). Nobody gives a shit about these statues day to day. They just don't like it that black people/BLM supporters dare to pull them down.

I guess a very loose and simplistic comparison would be - Kevin Spacey was a highly celebrated actor until 2017, when it was discovered he had been sexually abusing young male actors for years. At that point, Netflix removed him from planned filming of their biggest show, and eradicated any mention of him in cast lists.

We took 7 Tour de France titles from Lance Armstrong after his doping scandal.

We can deal with and condemn the individuals involved despite knowing abuse in Hollywood and drugs in sport still happen. In fact we must, surely?

[quote Rosebyanothername19]@hammeringinmyhead no I'm arguing that vandalism and violence of any kind, by anyone is detracting from the movement, not aiding it.[/quote]
Are you? Where does this post fit into that argument?

it's not the case of telling someone else to deal with the issue. It's something we should all be dealing with. I'm saying that if you want to go after slavers, maybe start with the ones still alive and active...

I support BLM but where do we stop do we pull down the Roman Baths because they would have been built on the back of slaves too. I would rather us keep statues no matter how offensive they are we need to know our history and not sugar coat it regardless of how sickening it may be we have to accept the fact it was part of the culture back then horrible I know but we should not censor history just because we dont like or agree with it if we start doing that we start down the path towards Nazi Germany .

Right so both your examples are still alive and were affected by the punishments and fall in public opinion. The statues dont care for their reputation and toppling them doesnt change anything. It just creates more division.

By 'going after' I meant in a none violent way as in holding them accountable. I was in no way saying that they should be mobbed and thrown in a river...

@Forcesmum123

I support BLM but where do we stop do we pull down the Roman Baths because they would have been built on the back of slaves too. I would rather us keep statues no matter how offensive they are we need to know our history and not sugar coat it regardless of how sickening it may be we have to accept the fact it was part of the culture back then horrible I know but we should not censor history just because we dont like or agree with it if we start doing that we start down the path towards Nazi Germany .

Where do you stand on the statue of Jimmy Savile that was taken down in 2012? Was that censoring history?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19822296