To doubt my marriage over this..

[Beeech]

DH and I have been together for 7 years and have one child together.

Our marriage is great, he's a fantastic husband and father. I can't believe how lucky I've been.

But last night, he shocked me. Whilst discussing the BLM protests, he announced that he didn't believe white prividge doesn't exist. In fact, he believes that everyone has equal opportunity in this country. When I asked even women? He said that's different and unacceptable but he doesn't believe that skin colour doesn't impact the opportunities available to people.

I was gobsmacked and beyond furious at his ignorance. We had a big argument which had left me doubting if I can be with someone so fucking stupid!?

AIBU

My DH felt this way at one time due to the way he was raised. In fact he had some pretty backwards ideas in general. But he was a good man in so many other areas.

I didn't leave him, I slowly educated him. Not with arguments or lectures but with discussion and examples. His eyes were opened to the realities of being non-white and/or female in today's world. It was worth the work. He's now a vocal advocate for the rights of others and for equal treatment under law.

My DH has always said that positive discrimination is a poor idea, that people will be appointed to positions they aren't equipped to do well to fill the quotas, etc etc. This week he said he now sees that although it is flawed it is the only way we will see change for women and for BME people and their underrepresentation at senior levels.

The problem I think is that both these positions are correct - if a woman or someone of colour is appointed purely on that basis (positive discrimination) and then isn't good at the job, it sets those causes back rather than advancing them.

As for white privilege, it has the same issues as any other 'ism' - by anyone outside a particular group, exceptions are taken to be the rule because exceptions make the headlines. So people see successful, multimillionaire black and Asian businesspeople, actors, sportsmen and women, and therefore think that opportunities are equal, 'look at xxxx...'

The same thinking works the other way too, a programme like Benefit Street or a Daily Fail article will have a lot of people believing that all benefit claimants are feckless, lazy, fiddling the system and spending the money on beer, fags and 60" TVs.

We need more coverage of the lives of the general populations, not the exceptions. It does happen occasionally, but it doesn't make waves and isn't considered watercooler telly when it does.

Let's be honest, if you have only found this out now, neither of you were very aware and both were oblivious. I am not saying you were knowingly racist, but the very fact that when we are in a privileged position we can sail through life never needing to confront these questions and not having racism affect us directly, enables as to be so unaware of the beliefs of those around us.

It's not a surprise that when you finally sit down and ask pointed questions you don't think alike.

However, if he is a loving human being who takes responsibility for those around him he has the potential to change. You now know your starting point. You may want to reflect on why as a couple you never needed to have these discussions, that is very revealing.

I think it's important not to point fingers at those around us but to reflect upon ways we still are unaware of structural racism. The very fact that after 7 years you have never needed to think about these issues shows you that.

I would have difficulty with an attitude like this. I suppose continuing in the marriage would depend if he was open minded enough to educate himself further. This was an interesting read, you could see if it might enlighten him www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/

It's funny isnt it how you think you know someone so well and then type of thing this crops up. It is a very fundamental belief so yanbu, BUT I know that sometimes when we're hit with ideas that seem quite radical, people can initially be quite closed to them. But once you've seen it you cant unseen it... or in his case now he's aware of this issue he might start to slowly get it?
It's a massive thing and it really reflects on a person's attitudes as a whole really. So only you can decide op but I get where you're coming from.
Have you asked him why he thinks there are fewer black people in higher education, highly paid jobs, barely represented in parliament, as CEOs etc? Be interesting to see what he thinks...
People think the job is complete when laws are amended, sadly that doesn't mean attitudes change and that's a massive part of the problem and exactly the same with equality for women.

Give him a chance. Have a look online about how to educate him and see if he'll engage.
I would have a problem being married to someone who had such backward views and refused to change. I can see why you're concerned but don't write him off before you've tried. I managed to persuade my father that being homophobic was a ridiculous point of view without getting angry at him. He just needing eduating.

I'm not sure about 'white privilege'. I was brought up in Africa and it was rich privilege, and tribal privilege. I'm not white, and sometimes I've felt discriminated against. But I'm not sure it wouldn't happen in China or Korea.

Helenurth that's a great link.
That would be a good starting point for OPs DH if he's up for reading it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with him not believing in it now. Lots of people struggle with it. I think the question is more whether, after research and education he still doesn't believe in it because it's pretty hard not to....I recommend you watch the color of fear on YouTube. It's a documentary where a man similarly doesn't believe in white privilege, but he starts to understand it through conversations with poc.

OP, it sounds like you've both been living in a privileged bubble and you've just realised that.

That you acknowledge your own white privilege is obviously positive, but you can't blame him for not being on exactly the same page as you in the development of your awareness of your own white privilege. It's natural that straight white men are generally going to find privilege harder to understand and accept as a concept than straight white women as they won't have experienced sex oppression.

If racial oppression had been such an important issue to you over the past 7 years, you would have discussed racism with him before now.

My adult son rightfully acknowledges white privilege exists, to the point that he finds it impossible to believe that any white person in NI often lived in fear of running into the ‘wrong person’ while out, during the troubles. We’ve had quite heated debates on it, as he thinks I don’t truly believe in it (I do, absolutely) because I’ve tried to explain to him that many of the people of my generation can relate to that fear of harassment and threat of death, while acknowledging that at least our religious background couldn’t be ‘seen’, when we were out and about. Apparently that means I don’t believe in white privilege.

If you try to talk to him about male privilege, he’s absolutely certain that it doesn’t exist. One of his arguments is based on the fact that females get a lump sum, as an assentive to join his very male dominated work, which is computer related. Apparently the woman that joined, is really bad at her job and the other blokes agree with him. I’ve asked him how many men are crap at their job, but he says that’s different because there are more men, but only one woman. I’ve pointed out to him, that as more females enter his line of work the more well qualified and skilled females he’ll work with and the grants will stop, but he.just.doesn’t.get.it!

But he’s fully behind (and again we agree on this) incentives to encourage and support BAME into certain jobs, but not women. I don’t know where I went so wrong, because he genuinely is a lovely, kind and generous young man, but has a total blind spot on this. Just don’t get us started on why irrational women are for wanting to maintain female spaces. 🙄

I’m still not throwing him out.

@Beeech, I've had similar discussions with DH about sexism and women. It took me a long time to make him realise how bad the situation is. (Im now having similar discussion with my teens boys....)

This what I think:

• he is so privileged that he doesnt see the issue and will genuinely not see there is a problem
• he has never stopped to read and learn about racism in the uk. It is not talked that much to be honest (apart from now)
• this doesn't mean that he is racist as in will go out of his way to put balck people down or think they are inferior.
• But he is not aware that some attitudes (and that includes his own attitudes/comments/reactions) are actually rooted in racism. And to be fair, I think we are all (white people) in that place. Some more than others but racism is culturally ingrained that it will take a long time for white people to not have any prejudice at all.

The answer to that is educate him. And keep insisting with data, proper data such as the fact black women have 5 times more 'chance' of dying in childbirth thah white women. Or stats about having 50% more chance of being unemployed than white people afer graduating (with the same diploma) etc....
It will sink in (but might take tie if my H is to go by). carry on talking and mentioning it.

Fwiw I am also foreign (and clearly H is not xenophobic if he married me and had dcs with me). But explaining how certain behaviours are actually xenophobic and not people making conversations again took time. It's hurtful for him to acknowledge that by living in his country, I am putting myself in a difficult situation just because of my accent (And I am VERY aware this is nothing compare to what black people experience btw)

I think my (white) DH would possibly say the same, OP. He grew up abroad in a former British colony, multi cultural international school, and now works for a global company with white western and westernised Asians, from many nationalities. He therefore thinks colour is irrelevant to social mobility. What I think he doesn't see (and it's the source of many arguments) is that his world is about people from with an expensive education (most been well supported by their families) who have succeeded in a certain area (business, finance). Not sure they have any Africans, or African Americans, for example. It's this lack of willingness from some people to recognise the social and economic inequalities that makes them think race is irrelevant.

urkidding I guess it's the society we grow up in and how power is structured. Due to the history of the UK there are associations with dark pigment that historically placed people at the bottom of the class structure.

It's easy for Brits to recognize class and power and that's something we talk about a lot and have been educated through our families, schools and media to be aware of and think about. How we have structured race and the associations we have with colour and descent (whether European or African for example) are only touched on and then often skimmed over in our society because I think it highlights inequality in ways that we are not comfortable talking about.

So now we need to understand it will be uncomfortable but we still need to talk about it and act to right injustice. I think also, we have had a tendency to talk negatively and blame the poor for their situation since the 1980s particularly. People with brown skin are associated with poverty and so I think it's talking about injustice when a large segment of our society of all skin tones are suffering due to poverty is another reason we are uncomfortable.

It reminds us that there are structural reasons for our inequalities and they are not necessarily just. Acknowledging that brings a lot of things into question.

It is hard to hear that your own achievements aren't based solely on hard work and ability. It must be especially hard for some who have achieved very little.

Jesus, ending your marriage? completely OTT

Hm. I'm not scared to say what I think. I'm more likely to lose my job or fail to get one for speaking freely than being mixed race, it's hilarious. I think white privilage's relevance today is a bit of an exaggeration and being used to explain away more complicated problems, like cycles of poverty that are not about race anymore, though there was a time that was a big factor, now the entrenched disadvantage is more about where you were born and how much money your parents have, and the kind of schools you go to, and white people face these problems too and asian, etc. I have a cousin, both her parents are black, who got a scholarship to a top boarding school then oxford....what disadvantage did she face exactly? There was no adversity for her in her own words. If black people are accused of crime more its largely because they are more likely to be in gangs and commit etc because of other social problems, it is statistical probability...there are a minority giving a bad name to many, as at these protests. Tearing down statues that are our SHARED HERITAGE is distateful, I'd rather read a plaque next to the statue about the good and the bad, I'd rather educate my kids than sell them a revisonist fiction. Am I brainwashed with these views? I don't think so. My white female police officer friend was caught in one of these protests and she felt scared and threatened because they were shouting at her that she was white b*h, how is that not racism? That's ok because she's white? It's not ok for either side to use hateful language like that. Ok she was working for the police but that sense of vulnerability due to your race or gender can apply to anyone depending on the circumstances. Black lives definitly matter (!!) but these are the wrong issues and we shouldn't be tolerating peolple who overstep lawful protest or want to act like they are more equal whatever their skin colour (biased media reporting won't help it will only polarise like in the U.S). Where does it end, they get handed a job because they are black? That wouldn't be true equality and I think we pretty much have that already in a purely meritocratic sense. We already have plenty of selection programmes to help ethnic minorities so what is all this mob anger really about? As said, we sit the same tests and it's far more down to ability at the end of the day BUT there are problems with access to resources, houses, employment that are not really racial at all, much more about social mobility. Funny how the current unemployment situation seems to have precipitated these riots and protests, the POOR who may or may not be black and women are bearing the brunt of the lockdown. I honestly think being female is a greater disdvantage than being a darker skin colour in today's jobs market but that's just my opinion, and that's only because we live in a society that doesn't value flexi working yet or value 'feminine traits' that some women may express that are historically seen as weak. I can't say my skin colour affects how I think, certainly way less than PMS does or having babies when that changed my career priorities, but anyway I'm not saying feminism is better than anti racism I'm just saying that for me they are protesting about all the wrong things in a way that is just going set us up with a Trump (or a Farage) as a reaction against the violence and anarchy and distruction of british culture and heritage which has actually done a lot of good, like the rule of law and freedom and all that stuff...it looked like revolutionary france out there, scary.

Get him
To watch 13th on Netflix. I watched it last year and it has educated me a little - v v good documentary. I'd be interested in what he says after watching it.

Class privilege is also a factor in the U.K. so white working class boys can be disadvantaged. And seeing so many successful ethic minority people can make it appear that we are all equal. I’ve always lived in multicultural cities and worked and studied with people of other ethnicities/nationalities. Often they have nicer backgrounds and parents who are more supportive and connected than my working class white parents of Irish/English heritage. However I still can understand these people may have experienced racism even if I haven’t witnessed it.

I can see that black people specifically are underrepresented in university and senior positions in work. This is due to deeper, structural racism going back generations, causing greater poverty and disenfranchisement, specifically in the Caribbean communities. I recall only one black kid at my school going on to sixth form for example. It’s similar to how girls aren’t socialised to do STEM careers from an early age, black kids are written off and not encouraged enough. There were also a lot of white working class kids similarly written off, but no doubt their treatment will have been different due to different biases and experiences at home and outside school.

Ultimately it ends up like a game of disadvantage top trumps. Instead we need to address the issues specific to the black population in the U.K. and longer term make it a fairer and more equal society overall. Sadly a Tory government and failing economy will be a huge barrier.

My DH is white and has so many other kinds of privilege in addition. That privilege means you are not always aware that you have it. Talk. Discuss. Read the book "How to have difficult conversations".

DH has, through exposure to new ideas and different people via me, slowly moved leftwards his entire life and is now quite a champion of diversity and equality, taking effort to put in supportive measures and change the ethos at his work, sticking up for marginalised people etc. I'm not sure he even knew they existed 20 years ago.

some differences just have to be buried I’m afraid.

NOT THIS ONE I'm afraid....

But then I have a biracial child who has been racially profiled...

Do let him live in his little bubble. Thing is, do you want to live like that?
I wouldn't even be into a man who is so unaware. Shows not only a lack of intelligence but an unwillingness to learn about the world we live in.

What's 'Prividge'?

This is something that bothers you so much, yet you can't even spell the word correctly.

Hmmm....

greekyogurtaddict

I’m so glad that you have one black, wealthy friend that has succeeded in life. That absolutely proves there is no discrimination. There! See! All you BAME posters read this. Obviously you have just been really really unlucky, when you’ve suffered at the hands of bigots and racists, because greekyogurtaddict says so, along with a load of other subtle racist shite. Now excuse me, while I go and fetch my eyes, as they fell out, I rolled them so much reading that posters absolute drivel.

I swore I was going to stay out of race and colour discussions, as I was worried about saying the wrong thing and have very little contact with BAME people, other than some Chinese friends, but holy fuck, I couldn’t let that go.

Isn’t he allowed an opinion?

Some opinions are so offensive that they're enough to end a relationship over.

If he'd have said he thought black people deserved less and deserved to be treated badly because they were black, would that be ok?

Because that, in essence, is what he is saying. He wants to preserve and sees no issue in the status quo.

I think often that other marginalised groups come to an earlier awareness of marginalisation and privilege in other groups. And when you're talking to a woman about, say, homophobia or racism, if they reply that "saying X isn't racism", you can often point to their own experience of sexism, and how it feels when men refuse to accept a woman's experience of harassment or sexism. And then apply that to e.g. racism.

Whereas with a white, middle class, straight man, there isn't that kind of example where they can fairly easily put themselves in the shoes of someone who is being subjected to discrimination. So it's harder for them to 'get' it. And of course, the fact they haven't got any kind of comparable experience is privilege in itself.