Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

She didn’t say women menstruate. She said people who menstruate are women.

So she never said women who don’t menstruate aren’t women.

very few transgender people benefit in terms or money or statue from transitioning. The only benefit to them is the ability to live authentically.

So no sports scholarships, places on public boards (Scotland), woman of the year (Pip Bunce), book prizes (see Joanne Harris yesterday), columns in newspapers, publishing contracts?

I used to think like this OP. Then I read up a bit. I realised that my uncomfortableness stemmed from ignorance.

Trans people believe they ARE a woman or man. It's not a case of appropriation. You have every right not to believe it but why share those views? What harm are they actually doing to you? How do you think it makes a person with true gender dysphoria feel to be basically told they aren't really who they say they are? Why does it help you or jk Rowling or anyone?

Transmen menstruate. Why does it matter to you? They are the oppressed minority in this example.

So no sports scholarships, places on public boards (Scotland), woman of the year (Pip Bunce), book prizes (see Joanne Harris yesterday), columns in newspapers, publishing contracts?

For a rare few. These are privileges which are simply not accessible to the vast majority of trans people. Furthermore, these are generally achievements which have been earned in spite of their achievers being transgender, not because of it. And even where such achievements are obtained, they come alongside the prejudice and oppression that currently comes with being trans. There is no opportunity to simply step out of being trans when it gets uncomfortable, the way white people pretending to be black can.

But, in general, white people who identify into or appropriate black culture benefit from it; very few transgender people benefit in terms or money or statue from transitioning. The only benefit to them is the ability to live authentically.

I'm not sure what that means to live authentically.

In some countries men who have sex with men are pigeonholed as transgender. Is this authentic?

People like Jane Fae had a wife and kids and a job advocating for extreme pornography and now they still have that but also appear as feminists, adding to their privilege.

David Thomas wrote a men's rights activism book. Now David is called Diana and writes about transitioning to 'be a woman'.

Transgender youth such as Aimee Challenor and Lily Madigan had no notability or credibility outside of simply being transpeople.

It doesn't seem that an autistic socially marginalised male teen who identifies as transgender is giving anything up by doing this. Rather they are surrounded by images of affirmation of their new identity, pride months, days, rainbow crossings, etc.

Sure, some men might react poorly towards trangender-presenting people, but that's true of lots of other subcultures. If you go around with hundreds of piercings and a long black trenchcoat then you are going to be shunned outside your subculture as well. However the identity within that subculture is more affirming, and whereas there is no national Goth Pride, we are constantly told how wonderful and marginalised transpeople are.

Nope no benefit at all to transitioning if you’re a mediocre Male athlete. 🙄www.bendirs.co.uk/single-post/2019/08/29/Transwomen-in-womens-sport---stunning-and-brave-or-a-problem-that-needs-addressing

@zscaler you really need to do some thorough research into what current trans ideology entails and exactly what falls under the trans umbrella now.

I consider myself a feminist and am very supportive of trans rights. I don’t believe a man can be one a woman or a woman a man. I am aware some trans people will feel that contradicts my avowed support but I am aware others agree with me.
In a universe where there was no inequality between men and women I would have no problem with the whole concept of becoming the other sex. In our world where men are hugely over represented in positions of power, as sex attackers, as violent offenders, as domestic abuse murderers than I cannot in full conscience say it’s ok for men who think they are women to share my female spaces (or this word my daughters) not because I think trans people are particularly dangerous but because some men are very dangerous and they will exploit this just like they have exploited every type of legal, cultural and social advantage they have ever had. I do not want recently self defined trans women In our prisons, I don’t want them in women’s sport and especially in contact sports. Lung capacity, bone density, the narrower pelvis and increase muscle mass are life long advantages and disadvantage women.
I want trans men to feel safe and trans women to feel safe. I acknowledge that there is a huge difference between a woman or man who has lived as the opposite sex for years and possibly had surgeries and someone who might still present as a male regularly alongside female days. Any trans man can come into my woman’s loo still, trans women living as women post surgery are very welcome but I don’t want anyone with a penis in that space. That might make some people sad but I am ok with that if it makes women and girls safer from assault and feeling unsafe.

With my trans friend I don’t agree with we just don’t really talk about it that much. We focus on our dogs and lives and do fine. In real life people can talk and share and even get in when they disagree.

@Mummyoflittledragon have you decided to quietly drop the accusation that I was claiming to speak for you, then?

From what I gather OP, the craic is as follows:

Trans people want the term 'woman' to incorporate biological and trans women. They took offence to JKR statement that people who have periods are women because that insinuates trans women are not women. The term 'cis woman' has been brought about by the trans community to describe a biological woman who identifies as her biological sex.

My own opinion - This is all getting a bit ridiculous.

JKR didn't say all women menstruate. She only said that those who do menstruate are women, biological women. And this is a fact that cannot be disputed. Yes, not all women menstruate, but anyone who does is a biological woman.

A lot of women (including myself) fail to see why women should have their identity altered to suit men who want to take over female pronouns. I am a biological woman therefore I am a 'woman'; why should I have to say I am a 'cis woman'? A man who has transitioned is a trans woman, although as stated above this is a term the trans community are looking to have removed. The issue with this (cis woman terminology aside) is that sex is binary, and so regardless of surgery, hormones or self identification, anyone who is genetically male cannot be a biological woman, and therefore using the term 'woman' to incorporate biological and trans women simply doesn't work.

As previous posters have said, this is sex appropriation and a disintegration of our sex-based protection laws. Why is it ok to appropriate our sex but not ok to appropriate someone else's race or culture? It is, unfortunately, another example of how women and women's hard fought-for rights are still being viewed as unimportant and disposable.

JKRs statement from yesterday can articulate this far better that I ever can, but it my view that is that women are now in a very dangerous position where if we state biological fact in defence of our sex-based rights we face the very real possibility of being labelled as transphobic or a TERF, and facing serious violence and discrimination as a result.

Ultimately, whilst I agree that trans people should be afforded the same rights and protection as the rest of society, it should not not be at the expense or detriment of women and our sex-based safety, anti discrimination and protection laws and rights.

@zscaler
I responded upthread

Rather than citing a handful of examples as evidence that transgender people aren't who they say they are why not campaign against those particular examples but not deny transgender human beings the basic right to be themselves.

I am also uncomfortable with the sports examples but don't seethisasevidence that transgender women are not women just that the issue is complex

MotherofKitties

I actually.understood.it the other way. Transmen menstruate, they are men. So not only women can menstruate.

In some countries men who have sex with men are pigeonholed as transgender. Is this authentic?

Clearly if someone is pigeonholed into being called transgender when that isn’t how they identify then no, it isn’t authentic. Nobody’s sense of self can be determined by another person.

HolyheadI am still to find a woke person who can explain, with clarity, why it's ok for men to appropriate women, but racial appropriation is so awful (which it is).

I'd like to see this explanation too!

@Littlemeadow123

Please take your questions elsehwere OP. Read non-bias sources from both sides of the argument. Mumsnet is the dictionary definition of transphobic.

Dictionary definition of transphobia:

unreasoning hostility, aversion, etc., toward transgender people.

That's not what I'm seeing here. I'm not seeing any hostility towards transgender people, I'm seeing questioning and an upholding of women's rights. Why does one group's rights trump another? Are the two mutually exclusive?

@Cyberattack

HolyheadI am still to find a woke person who can explain, with clarity, why it's ok for men to appropriate women, but racial appropriation is so awful (which it is).

I'd like to see this explanation too!

Look at @zscaler post a few pages back there are some quite interesting links.

slate.com/human-interest/2015/06/rachel-dolezal-caitlyn-jenner-how-transgender-is-different-from-transracial.html

medium.com/verve-up/transracial-is-not-the-new-transgender-why-race-and-gender-are-not-synonymous-b2c688ef0fae

@zscaler

In some countries men who have sex with men are pigeonholed as transgender. Is this authentic?

Clearly if someone is pigeonholed into being called transgender when that isn’t how they identify then no, it isn’t authentic. Nobody’s sense of self can be determined by another person.

Ah so it’s not ok to call someone trans. But it’s ok to call someone cis and challenge their sense of self. Righto

@Mummyoflittledragon no, you didn’t. You said:

I didn’t say you threatened me. However you defined me, spoke for me. I don’t have to go very far to find someone, who speaks as you have, who would gladly threaten me.

I then once again asked you to point out exactly where. You you dropped it.

I also think you have understood it very well OP.

For me a man can wear a dress and call himself Elizabeth rather than Edward, it makes zero difference to me, and ask me to refer to her as a she.

But I do not accept that a man who is living as a woman should have access to biological womens' spaces, sports or scholarships. That is where it will have an adverse impact on biological women.

@Littlemeadow123

Please take your questions elsehwere OP. Read non-bias sources from both sides of the argument. Mumsnet is the dictionary definition of transphobic.

*transphobia (trænzfoʊbiə) UNCOUNTABLE NOUN Transphobia is fear or hatred of transgender people.*

This is the dictionary definition. I do not see fear or hatred of transgender people. I see fear of women's rights being eroded.

No I didn’t drop it. You spoke for me by defining me and mumsnetters as largely transphobic. HTH

Trans people believe they ARE a woman or man.

That's a massive generalisation. I doubt many truly believe that, and some certainly do not. I believe I am Elvis Presley.

Trans people believe they ARE a woman or man. It's not a case of appropriation. You have every right not to believe it but why share those views? What harm are they actually doing to you? How do you think it makes a person with true gender dysphoria feel to be basically told they aren't really who they say they are?

I agree there is no need to go round pointing at transwomen and saying “not actually a woman!” and to do so would be hurtful and horrible. In most cases, it simply doesn’t matter whether we go along with their view that they are exactly the same as biological women.

BUT there are times when it does matter whether we accept that transwomen are the same as biological women or not. For example, do we accept transwomen and transgirls - who still have male bodies and in many cases male genitals - into women’s changing rooms? Women’s hospital wards? Women’s prisons? (Several biologically male prisoners are now identifying as women and wish to be transferred to women’s prisons) . Women’s sports teams (where they tend to outperform and therefore exclude natal women)? Girls’ boarding schools? Girls’ dorms on school trips?

It is perfectly possible not to go round insulting trans people, whilst also recognising that their biological sex is different from their chosen gender.

@Mummyoflittledragon

Goodness, for someone who got so cross when you thought I was trying to speak for you, you’re putting a lot of words in my mouth.

I didn’t call anyone cis. This is the first time I’ve used the word on the entire thread. I wouldn’t call someone cis unless they had already indicated that is how they identified. I support a person’s right not to be identified by the term ‘cis’ if they find it offensive.

Perhaps you could try responding to things I’ve actually said from now on?