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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

#IStandWithJKRowling

230 replies

Dances · 10/06/2020 18:49

Appears not to be trending on Twitter, despite the huge number of tweets in response to J K Rowling's tweet.

AIBU to think that Twitter is a bunch of fiddling, dishonest cheats?

OP posts:
SecretSpAD · 13/06/2020 20:05

Some people are born and have a personality which is different to the stereotype of their sex, and therefore believe they should have been the other sex

Thanks for this. It's the best explanation I've seen. I've got a 13 year old girl who thinks she's not a proper girl because she doesn't meet gender stereotypes and a 17 year old boy who some sections of society think is not male enough to be a man.

I'm just starting to have these conversations that I never thought I'd have and never wanted to have. Especially as I'm at heart a liberal who accepts that there are people who genuinely want to be a different gender, but at the same time, I'm a doctor and a woman who knows that genetically and physiologically men and women are different. And I celebrate our differences and recognise that biological men can never menstruate, get pregnant, give birth and so, because of these differences, they have been given advantages in this society.

Men who identify as women bring these innate advantages. They can't understand our experiences, just as biological women and biological men who are comfortable in their own bodies can ne we understand.

BiggestJulie · 13/06/2020 20:49

@titchy, I think, as I said before, that the Mermaid’s response is reasoned, measured, and empathic.

I am really at a loss to respond to @ItsLateHumpty . She accuses me of “playground insults” without referencing a single one I might have thrown (and I am at a loss to imagine to what she might be referring), while her responses to me have been “okay Boomer” (twice), “sucks to be you” and “dumb arse”. If I were really in the playground I fear I might have replied, “I know you are, but what am I?”

But I won’t, because that would be silly. And I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion about a serious issue.

As to the issue at hand, this is an extremely difficult problem, which I think we should all recognize. Trans teens, particularly (and that, along with children, is Mermaids’ main focus) are at risk in both male and female changing rooms and toilets. Given that, the question is how much risk do they afford to others in changing rooms and toilets. And, broadening the argument, especially given JKR’s valid points, there is the question of refuges and prisons.

I do not in any way pretend to have the solutions to this and I don’t think it is helpful to throw silly insults. There is good will, at least among some, on both sides. I think it would be reasonable to ask commentators here to accept that other posters (including me) have that good will.

I extend that courtesy to JKR, as I think Mermaids did in their response.

I have enormous respect for JKR, and I have often applauded her political tweets and blogs. I am not a fan of her fiction, but I know kids love it, and she has made millions, so I am definitely not one to judge there.

Nevertheless, I think the young actors who embodied her characters, have a right, even a duty, to consider her views, to evaluate them, and to take their own positions, as some of them have now done. If they now disagree with her I do not think that makes them hypocrites, nor do I think they should be expected to forgo the profits from their efforts, which came from them as well as the original author. (Just responding to a different Mumsnet link).

I am fully aware that Mermaids is a controversial organisation, and especially, it seems, on Mumsnet.

I am obviously not in a postion to advise JKR, but if I were, my advice would be to follow Mermaid’s advice:

“Don’t speak about trans children until you have talked to them first.”

JK Rowling is in a postion to do that, and I very much hope she will. Then someone who really matters can educate herself. She already knows a lot, but all if us who are willing, can learn more.

I have attempted at every point to post respectfully, and I hope I have here explained, as best I can, my thoughts on this issue, in fond expectation of some reasoned debate. I don’t think I have been met with the same courtesy on this thread, which is sadly typical of Mumsnet, and I do not intend, for that reason, to post or comment again.

I think if I were asked to describe myself in half a dozen words “feminist” would be among them. Celebrating women and female rights and female spaces and just valuing women have been among the most defining principles of my life.

But yeah, go for it. Dismiss me with Okay Boomer.

But talk to the kids. They matter.

ShebaShimmyShake · 13/06/2020 21:03

@GreytExpectations

Was very insensitive of her to post that during pride month. She knew exactly what she was doing.

But I don't agree with the threats she has received.

Why? She didn't say anything homophobic or trans phobic. When would have been an acceptable time?
PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg · 13/06/2020 21:17

@OldSiam sorry for @ing you, but the woman who runs Women Against Hate on FB is an old friend Smile.

She is indeed getting a right pile on, poor sod. Don't think she's losing much sleep over it, but I'm sure she'd welcome any support!

GreytExpectations · 13/06/2020 21:20

Why? She didn't say anything homophobic or trans phobic.

I'm your opinion.

GreytExpectations · 13/06/2020 21:21

Sorry stupid phone, meant in* your opinion

titchy · 13/06/2020 21:41

that the Mermaid’s response is reasoned, measured, and empathic.

But it's inaccurate and full of falsehoods. It has the veneer of measure, reason and empathy, but it's anything but.

To someone unfamiliar with the topic it seems sensible and just. Who can read a sentence 'We see no evidence that trans girls are a threat to other girls in any way.' And not come to the conclusion that those who say trans girls ARE a threat are wrong. Except of course, there's bucketloads of evidence detailing the threat of trans girls and TW to girls. Bucketloads.

Who can argue with an organisation that supports trans rights? Well no one supporting JKR says trans people shouldn't have rights either. But we disagree that those rights should mean the removal if the rights women.

'Trans women are already entitled to use the facilities that align with their gender identity, and those protections have been in place since the Equality Act 2010.' Eek - so that's a problem - it's illegal to stop trans women using facilities that align with their gender. Except of course, the EA 2010 says no such thing - in fact it says the opposite.

What about 'Since 2010, If predators have used the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 to gain access to women’s spaces, we are not aware of it, nor has evidence of such a pattern ever been cited by those who would dearly love to consolidate one of their most common attacks on trans rights. Neither has self-identification, adopted in many nations worldwide, led to abuse of systems. ' Gosh well it sounds like JKR is making a lot of fuss about nothing. Except of course, there are lots of predatory males who have done just that - all very well publicised (conveniently for you and others also listed on a MN thread - search for 'this never happens').

It's the easiest thing in the world to write a letter which appears reasonable and thoughtful when you misrepresent facts and ignore evidence to the contrary. I'd like to hope most people with some experience of the world could recognise that though. I assume you read newspapers and recognise they have particular political viewpoints and therefore don't take them at face value - do the same with Mermaids.

BiggestJulie · 13/06/2020 22:03

Okay, I said I wouldn’t post again, but I did not anticipate anything like @titchy ‘s response.

I am not unfamiliar with the topic.

Can I please see your “bucketloads” of evidence?

underneaththeash · 13/06/2020 23:56

That is the best example I’ve ever seen:

‘Some people are born and have a personality which is different to the stereotype of their sex, and therefore believe they should have been the other sex’

If that if you - you do not need to conform to that stereotype. It’s fine to be yourself. Surgery and hormones cannot change you into a different sex. It’s fine to be who you are.

Melia100 · 13/06/2020 23:59

Yes, women, please put your needs last again. After BLM, after Pride, after bloody everything else, because everything else includes men.

Fuck off with 'timing'. Any time is OK to defend the rights of women and girls.

HandsOffMyRights · 14/06/2020 00:42

@Melia100

Yes, women, please put your needs last again. After BLM, after Pride, after bloody everything else, because everything else includes men.

Fuck off with 'timing'. Any time is OK to defend the rights of women and girls.

Spot on.
titchy · 14/06/2020 09:33

Can I please see your “bucketloads” of evidence?

Of course Julie:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Suggest you make yourself a cuppa first - it's a long read. Most of the examples are referenced. A lot are criminal.

This is of course the 7th or 8th time this link has been posted for you on this thread so I don't expect much from you in the way of rebuttal....

MoaningMinniee · 14/06/2020 10:00

@BiggestJulie the case was a parent wishing to start treatment on their four year old and trying to find anyone willing to do it.

Frankly from what little I've seen and heard of that group since, they have deleted and blocked themselves into an echo chamber and I suspect I would have left anyway.

MN is about the only place on the internet where there is even the faintest chance of getting any intelligent nuanced debate, everywhere else gets swamped by hysterical levels of attacks from keyboard warriors.

ProfessorSillyStuff · 15/06/2020 10:25

They can't understand our experiences, just as biological women and biological men who are comfortable in their own bodies can ne we understand.

I read this from a doctor upthread.

I believe this is the crux for me, "gender is real, women and men who are not trans can never understand, because their gender aligns with their sex, they don't experience gender so intensely/authentically, and so they are able to discount it as not real."

How very insulting. I experience all aspects of myself quite authentically. I do things all the time my male peers say "wow you're strong, you have a lot of testosterone".
I am. I can do ten pull ups easily. I use the masonry drill and hang my own 65" tv bought with my own money. I also like to do my own acrylic extentions and knit. I look amazing in heels. I cook, clean and nurture. I had a high pressure career although all I ever wanted to do was be a sahm. I play guitar, paint and sing. What gender am I?

I definitely had questions about my gender growing up, at several points I preferred to dress in different ways to express myself. However I was lucky enough to be told, you can be whatever,, whenever, your sex doesn't define who you are, your body doesn't matter. Its what's inside that counts.

ProfessorSillyStuff · 15/06/2020 10:31

Nowadays I choose my clothes based purely on what I'm doing that day, and I adore wearing more traditionally "feminine" clothes, when it's practical to do so. Which is very rare for me, so there's a novelty.

P.s. Jk did state in her essay, that she knows several younger trans people and one older transwoman.

Yabad · 15/06/2020 11:00

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Yabad · 15/06/2020 11:02

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Enderthedragon · 15/06/2020 11:04

you can support her by spouting transphobic comments and buying her books to make her richer and even more of a bitch.

Hi hun....

Can you please clearly lay out your problems with what JK Rowling has said and why giving her opinion in the way that she has makes her, as you so delicately put it, a 'bitch'?

Enderthedragon · 15/06/2020 11:07

And just so you know, even on AIBU, we don't really go in for plopping misogynistic insults and then fucking off again. If you want to get some of that rage off of your chest, then you are probably better off on Twitter. Flowers

Oxfordnono12 · 15/06/2020 11:26

@Keeva2017 I agree with you!

Why cant people hold a veiw, opinion or are be allowed to ask questions without someone getting hurt or insulted? It contradicts the ideas of respecting each other whether you are gay, straight, bi, trans etc. How do you educate yourself? How do I describe myself as a women without insulting someone!

YourVagesty · 15/06/2020 12:45

make her richer and even more of a bitch.

Nice bit of misogyny there. Wonder which side of the debate you are on? I'm guessing the side that urges people to suck their dicks.

Cailleach1 · 15/06/2020 13:23

Read an article in the paper which stated a boy was bullied because their lunchbox was so feminine. Also, this type of lunchbox was indicative of how the child didn't conform to gender stereotypes.
Another bit was how a girl wanted to be a boy and the mother was sobbing as she cut her child's waist length hair short.

This is ridiculous. I had short hair as a child. It was very practical. Far from sobbing, my mother told me to apply myself to my schoolwork. I went fishing and shared my brother's toys. I feel so lucky in the place and time I grew up. No FGM, no saying something like a lunchbox was for a boy or girl. No unnecessary intervention in my biological development with medication or surgery. How they want to limit girls and women to keep our lives a theme park for others.

Cailleach1 · 15/06/2020 13:46

Ah, the misogyny has come aboard. First, this issue is carefully crafted in an 'oh so reasonable' narrative which is disingenuous and full of misinformation. Then the outré, ugly woman hating. Two sides of the same coin. And it is the same coin, dressed up as trying to present it as new and progressive.

If you don't fall for the narrative, you get the aggression as an example to others. Tactics worthy of many tyrannies.

ProfessorSillyStuff · 15/06/2020 14:45

and the mother was sobbing as she cut her child's waist length hair short.

This exactly. I have read several accounts from people describing gender dysphoria which state things such as "That went down well with mum and dad!" when talking about childhood experiences of parental reactions to gender explorations.

The only trans person I know, is a young male who identifies as female, and whose mum regularly makes sexist statements such as "God, men are such idiots, why are hey so lazy, why are they all like that" and so on.

ProfessorSillyStuff · 15/06/2020 14:50

I love and support this young male and respected always to use the correct name and pronouns when with her. I don't think it's OK though. I think when this young male's mum experienced domestic abuse, instead of talking with a therapist or family, she put all the hard conversations to her son. Alongside a lot of hate for the male sex.

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