Are we complete idiots?

[Happy20]

We have an ongoing issue with a boundary which isn't as easily answered as you would think! Basically the neighbors think a piece of land is there's when we are pretty sure it's ours.

When we brought our house the sellers said a meadow at the bottom of our drive was theirs, they mowed it and used it, even had a couple sheep on it once.
We moved in, all fine and dandy until the next weekend when neighbour is out there mowing the meadow. Very kind of him we think because obviously he is being neighbourly what with us having only just moved in. We think we've struck it rich with such lovely, thoughtful neighbours. Wife of neighbour comes round the next day with a welcome card and has a nice superficial chat. We thank her profusely for mowing our meadow and offer to help them out if they ever need a hand, well you can probably see where this is going. Neighbour tells us it's their meadow and there must have been a mix up. We explain what the old owners told us and she claims they ' must have been talking about another bit of land as it has always been theirs'. After much awkwardness and many protesting about how old neighbours must have pulled a fast one (without actually saying they have pulled a fast one) we leave it at we will talk to our solicitor and her being nice but increasingly frosty. I think she honestly thought we would just say it's fine and not bother with taking it any further. She seemed very out out that we would be talking to the solicitor and old owners solicitor.

Now is the massive issue!

Our house is very old, the deeds were lost a long time ago. We have insurance to cover the lack of deeds (can't remember what it's called but our solicitor insisted we needed this) and can see up to date deeds from our sale with the old owners, but cannot find anything further back than that.

So YABU - leave the neighbors to it. You brought a house with no deeds just hope they don't want to build on it.
YANBU - it's clearly your land and the are trying to pull a fast one.

We are waiting on a call back from our solicitor but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas where we might find really old, long list deeds? I would be forever grateful!!

@missymousey thank god you said it about brought

It's over, op. Even if at this point it could be proven that the sellers do in fact own this piece of land - it would mean just that; they own this piece of land.
It wasn't included in the sale, you don't own it.
I know it's childish but I actually laughed in a kind of horrified amusement at you swanning out and graciously thanking the neighbours for mowing your land.

Honestly...

Ask for a copy of the neighbours deeds. If the land is theirs they can prove it. If not and it's at the end of your drive I am guessing it's linked to theirs too by them accessing it. Only way round it without either having proof of ownership is to split the area.

@Bluntness100

If I were you, I would ask the sellers if they would be so kind as to swear a stat Dec or ST5 NOW to allow you to claim AP, not your neighbours

She can’t, because she needs to have had the use not the previous owners. She can’t claim it because they previous owners used it.

She does however need legal advice.

she does need it, if AP were possible (but there's no exclusive use, and it doesn't sound fenced off). She needs their stat dec to confirm prolonged use for the requisite number of years - an unbroken chain of use, or the clock starts again...

As the homeowners, they would then be able to submit their application to HMLR, using the previous owners' evidence of possession. So you're wrong, she would (if AP were possible) absolutely need the previous owners' evidence of use.

you should go back to the solicitor that dealt with the buying and they will have to clarify this with other solicitor that acted for your sellers and sort it out, sounds pretty awful for you though,

Why do people keep advocating that the two parties "just split" the land?

If neither own it, this is not solved by both claiming they own it.

@SoupDragon

I wonder how many actual solicitors/ experts in property law there are on this thread.

Hi!

@Bluntness100

It sounds to me like this was a sale of an unregistered property and the land registry will be registering it

There is no sale. of anything. It’s not on her deeds. Or mentioned on any paperwork, they didn’t even confirm they owned it prior to proceeding and it’s Unregistered, she’s already checked,

There was a sale, of the house - we know that. Her sellers presumably lived there since time began and it was never registered, until now...never triggered since late 80's, early 90's when compulsory registration came in.

Whether the land was a bona fide part of the property sold, who knows - the smoking gun will be the plan to the Root Conveyance (if unregistered) sent to the buyers for approval. It didn't include the land, so they are at fault - or at least that's how it reads to me.

We had an issue in our church, where they wanted to sell the minister's house which had been bought in the 1950s, but the deeds were lost. First call was the local records office - this took someone a lot of work! As nothing could be found, they had to pay to have new deeds written up - but also pay some insurance in case anybody else claimed possession. What did the illustration on Zoopla/Rightmove show? Hope you get it sorted soon!

@TriangleBingoBongo

You don’t own it.

I don’t think your solicitor was incompetent, I don’t think OP took the time to listen and absorb what they were being told, not realising it’s too late to sort it all out after.

It does sound like that's happened.

I see it ALL the time - other side gets ratty because a £500K purchase has taken over 4 weeks to complete (unreasonable buggers) and starts to put huge pressures on the buyers who LOVE the house so in turn pressure their solicitor to "just get it done".

When I drop £500K on something, I will fight tooth and nail to give the person doing the due diligence on that purchase the space to do a good fucking job...

Your sol should, if anything, have stood up to the sellers and told them (via their own sol) to get back in their box.

Unregistered land belongs to someone. It's not ownerless, just not registered.

Finding out who the owner is involves detective work.
As your deeds have been lost you need to look at all the neighbouring properties. There is likely to be an old deed or document somewhere which will indicate who owned it and you may be able to trace through how the land was divided/how it was passed on. Find a solicitor who is experienced in unregistered land. Many conveyancers these days are pushed into providing a cheap service and they don't have much knowledge about anything remotely complex.

If you can't find anything suggesting ownership, you should be able to get evidence from the previous owners about their use of the meadow which will counter the NDN's claims. I assume the clock starts again now for adverse possession (but check with a solicitor it may not) but at least you'll be able to stop NDNs claiming it. But the old owner will have zero incentive to get involved.

The time to have sorted this out was obviously pre-sale. You may have a case to say they misrepresented the land, but they will say it was for you to have checked and your plan only shows you bought the house and attached land and not the meadow. There may be a claim in negligence but again you say you didn't pursue this with the solicitor and it wasn't on the plan of what you bought.

Old Ordnance Survey maps may help.
Also old aerial photos. There's a national archive of those.

I'm hoping it is yours and the solicitors will find summat. But there's no doubt they added extra on for that bit of land. I would find all the documents u have. You must have a contract of sale stating what else comes with the along with house. Or photos from sale of agency. The solicitor might have even kept some and the bank because of the insurance purposes.

What does it say on current deeds?

Forget about the deeds for now. If the previous owner will confirm that they have used and maintained the land as theirs, and kept livestock on it, there would seem to be a reasonable presumption that the land was theirs. From the sound of your neighbours they would not have granted anyone use of their land without rental which they would have to declare for tax purposes. Your predecessor has enjoyed possession of the land so unless neighbours can show otherwise a court should grant you possession now.

OP your solicitors sound shite! Our buyers solicitors were like Rottweilers and nothing was left in doubt! I’d certainly be getting someone round to measure my land and then be putting in a complaint if it was sold as 1.5 acres (as in the meadow) to find out it’s 1 acre because you don’t own the extra land! I’d be v peed off

@MinecraftMother totally this!!!

@Danny8558

Forget about the deeds for now. If the previous owner will confirm that they have used and maintained the land as theirs, and kept livestock on it, there would seem to be a reasonable presumption that the land was theirs. From the sound of your neighbours they would not have granted anyone use of their land without rental which they would have to declare for tax purposes. Your predecessor has enjoyed possession of the land so unless neighbours can show otherwise a court should grant you possession now.

No

then be putting in a complaint if it was sold as 1.5 acres (as in the meadow) to find out it’s 1 acre because you don’t own the extra land!
Estate agents often put "subject to survey" or something similar in the sales particulars.

Ok there is a little unknown fact that might be happening here..

With forest land , (and number of folks have done it here) If it runs directly from your property and you fence a certain amount off so for example you have fenced off, if you have it fenced for 7 years and noone disputes it. YOU can claim that as yours. So it doenst have to be on the deeds or does it show up on the deeds.

Now something to think about is it fenced? If its fenced whos fencing is it? What type of fencing? Im taking it the meadow adjoins both your properties? Is there a way to amicably share it?

Blondie Are you an expert in property law???

I'm guessing not...

@WinterIsGone No im not however I KNOW that it is being done in my local area by several people...
Im offering a suggestion to what might have occurred.

(Not saying its fact but its one reason it might not be on the deeds etc )
So make of that whatever you want.
Cheers!

Loads of people here posting with no idea what they are talking about. You can get an expert surveyor to look at the boundaries and give an expert opinion on who the land belongs to. It'll cost you though. Best to get advice from a properly qualified conveyancer. You might have legal cover on your home insurance that might help.

I had a boundary issue with my house . We knew we owned the land - on the deeds . Next door said they had a right of way on it ( together with 3 neighbours in their terrace. Then next door decided to extend and build their driveway over their boundary across ‘our land’ . Their ownership ( on deeds ) ended at the edge of their building.

It got very ugly. We dug up ‘their’ drive and wall that they built on our land, and put it on their property.

They called the police.

I had obtained land registry deeds for our house, our adjoining neighbours , also next door ( who tried stealing ‘our land’ and for all 4 houses in their terrace. It was easy to do on land registry - copy of the title plan ( who owned what ). And all the terms of deeds etc . In advance.

When the police came , neighbours wanted me & dh Done for criminal damage. I in turn showed the police all the deeds and stated I wanted them done for trespass and fly tipping if there was to be any charges brought.

Police said it was a civil matter, no charges but the land registry paperwork did confirm that in law - we were the owners.

The boundary issue caused much upset , wasn’t resolved quickly. I saw a solicitor .
Boundary cases are very, very expensive in court .

Ultimately I ended the issue ( by being lucky & bluffing a bit). Everyone involved had a meeting together. ( solicitor letters had already gone back and forth.)

I stated that unless I got full agreement of the boundary line in my favour as per the deeds , that I needed my land put right at no cost to us & all further claims dropped - I would take them to court and when it was found in my favour ( as it would as per the deeds) , they would also have to pay my court costs - and they could loose their house over it as costs were so high.

They all agreed right there and then 😉.

But you need the land registry plan - if you are going to get any good result .