Are we complete idiots?

[Happy20]

We have an ongoing issue with a boundary which isn't as easily answered as you would think! Basically the neighbors think a piece of land is there's when we are pretty sure it's ours.

When we brought our house the sellers said a meadow at the bottom of our drive was theirs, they mowed it and used it, even had a couple sheep on it once.
We moved in, all fine and dandy until the next weekend when neighbour is out there mowing the meadow. Very kind of him we think because obviously he is being neighbourly what with us having only just moved in. We think we've struck it rich with such lovely, thoughtful neighbours. Wife of neighbour comes round the next day with a welcome card and has a nice superficial chat. We thank her profusely for mowing our meadow and offer to help them out if they ever need a hand, well you can probably see where this is going. Neighbour tells us it's their meadow and there must have been a mix up. We explain what the old owners told us and she claims they ' must have been talking about another bit of land as it has always been theirs'. After much awkwardness and many protesting about how old neighbours must have pulled a fast one (without actually saying they have pulled a fast one) we leave it at we will talk to our solicitor and her being nice but increasingly frosty. I think she honestly thought we would just say it's fine and not bother with taking it any further. She seemed very out out that we would be talking to the solicitor and old owners solicitor.

Now is the massive issue!

Our house is very old, the deeds were lost a long time ago. We have insurance to cover the lack of deeds (can't remember what it's called but our solicitor insisted we needed this) and can see up to date deeds from our sale with the old owners, but cannot find anything further back than that.

So YABU - leave the neighbors to it. You brought a house with no deeds just hope they don't want to build on it.
YANBU - it's clearly your land and the are trying to pull a fast one.

We are waiting on a call back from our solicitor but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas where we might find really old, long list deeds? I would be forever grateful!!

They have said that they ' have been using the meadow for nearly 20 years' but are unwilling to fall out with next door as apparently they are part of the same dinner club?

Well you won't get any more help from them then. I assume they did not put anything about the meadow in writing or by text before the sale?

With my cynical hat on - they sold you their house at a high price because of the land attached, and told their mates that you will have no claim on the land so to take over its maintenance right after the sale and set about legally possessing it.

Do the neighbours also have access, or do they need to hop over a fence or something?

It's unlikely you'll get to own it if you don't, but at least make sure you thoroughly explore every avenue.

@StCharlotte Good point, although OP did have a look online it is worth running a LR search on the meadow and all adjacent properties as well as the local authority searches.

@NoMoreMuchin

What was the outcome of your issue? Can't believe anyone would have the audacity to rip down someone's fence and put a new one up! Especially new neighbours!

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If you go to the local county archives once they reopen, you should be able to find out who owned it in c.1910-15 in the land valuation records drawn up then. These should have a map and a schedule book, so every bit of property should be clear. Obviously it is quite a long time ago, but it could be useful if it shows the meadow in the same ownership as the house, or the neighbour’s house, or a local farm.

As your house is old, it is also not completely impossible that the archives might even have the historic deeds or old sales particulars.

Your solicitor sounds incredibly incompetent. I can’t believe they allowed themselves to be bullied into completing without all the relevant information. What a bodge job.

My husband is a conveyancing solicitor and he will absolutely stand his ground until he has everything he needs to complete a sound purchase. He impressed one top London solicitor so much that they used him (from a little village law firm!) to do his personal conveyancing.

I’m just amazed that your solicitor was so awful.

Ask your solicitor to do an index map search as this will confirm if it’s registered and its owner. If not, this may have to be passed to a dispute resolution solicitor to sort out, if you want to pursue your “claim” on the land. This will have to involve your sellers who may not want to cooperate. There may be other witnesses who can confirm who used the land?

DH is a solicitor, he said to get a statutory declaration from the old owners through your solicitor then register with the land registry but your solicitor should have done it

Can a law searcher help? I instructed one recently to go through archives of deeds for unregistered plot

They therefore had no parking and no right of access over the land between the barn and the farmhouse next door. They also had no right of access through the farmyard of the first farmhouse since that was to have been sorted out years ago when the two related families first purchased.

Thats sounds like the "ransom strip" so popular with Fen farmers! "I'll sell you that bit of land boi" and then you find out he wants a lot of loot to get to it over a narrow bit of his land!

You don’t own it.

I don’t think your solicitor was incompetent, I don’t think OP took the time to listen and absorb what they were being told, not realising it’s too late to sort it all out after.

Is the hassle worth it?

Check for old deeds and see if the plans include the land - if the land reg have missed them a quick email letter with proof will sort it and they will rectify their error.

If not, which I suspect isn’t the case and actually this land has just been overlooked there’s nothing you can do. You can’t get adverse possession, all you can do is register a notice against the land so you get notified of any applications against it. That way if your neighbour tried to register it you can dispute it and stop any application of theirs.

I'd start to make inroads to put your name against in now before your ndn do. No idea how you go about that tho

I would be surprised if a Stat Dec hadn’t already been sworn. Most solicitors wouldn’t accept a policy without an associated SD. Especially if the policy relates to both the house and meadow as my interpretation of this is that they were both unregistered on purchase.

If my understanding is correct and the policy covers both the house and the meadow then a Stat Dec needs to be in place for the property to be mortgageable. If I’m wrong on what I think the policy covers, ignore me!

Ask your solicitor to review the file, no one including me is qualified to advise on a file they’ve not seen so they will be the first port of call, and if you’re not happy with the outcome there are further steps you can take.

Good luck

I don’t believe there is an indemnity in respect of this land. The only possible indemnity would be for lost title deeds or possessory title. Lost title deeds don’t prevent you registering the title and possessory title is still title. The OP does not have title to this piece of land. There is no way for a mortgagee to dispose of the land of register their interests against it. So there is nothing to indemnify. Indemnity policies are generally for the benefit of the lender where the title is imperfect. This title isn’t imperfect - it’s non existent.

I think it’s clear the OP doesn’t understand the position and so rather than condemn their solicitor they should speak to them and properly digest the information they have already been furnished with.

If the vendors swore a stat Dec as to the title and ownership of this land they’d be in contempt court. It’s clear they don’t believe the land is theirs.

There is an old gate from the meadow onto our drive.

Is that the only access? Do you own the drive exclusively?

With no deeds (and you've seen the neighbours deeds) then nobody has a right of access over the drive to the gate to access the meadow. So you could try to prevent access whilst this is all being resolved ...

nobody has a right of access over the drive to the gate to access the meadow

That’s not true either. Access isn’t just by deed. It can also be by necessity, long user.

Just to reiterate what others have said, historic deeds do not mean anything. My sister purchased a property a few years ago. The person she bought the house from purchased a large chunk of their neighbours garden (all done in the deeds, there is no dispute and my sister now owns it). If you got a copy of the historic deeds to my sisters house (or her neighbours house) then the ownership would look compliantly different.
Your deeds show you what you bought.

It would be interesting to know what your indemnity insurance actually covers? If it covers you in the instance that you do not own this land and you paid a higher price for the property then I guess you would be able to pull on this insurance? I’m not 100% sure that my understanding of indemnity insurance is correct though

historic deeds do not mean anything.

Historic deeds are what modern deeds (the property register) are comprised of. They show transactions relating to the land and should show a chain of ownership. It could be this meadow was never conveyed to anyone and so there is no title. Historic deeds are in no way irrelevant. Registration dematerialised paper deeds making deeds electronic. So historic deeds are still lodged but held electronically. Where deeds paper and are not lodged with the land reg they are no less relevant. Don’t forget around 15% of land remains unregistered.

Indemnity insurance isn’t insurance for a loss of the purchaser in making a poor purchase. It is to insure against the loss associated with any claims against the property and any losses arising out of those claims.

@TheShoesa
I would erect ekther a 6 foot fence directly behind those fences blocking access, or post and rail directly in front of those fences. If its private land with not right of access you have the right to do this. I would also consider drafting a letter to all those residents and posting it theought their door to say they are trespassing. Perhaps also pin a copy to the gates too.

You have no right to exclude someone from land that isn’t your own and which you have no claim to.

Also worth considering that if you start erecting fences that’s very costly and pretty likely to piss your neighbours off. So you’ve now devalued the property you do have title to by creating a dispute. That is a matter that is disclosable on a sale.

Would you consider going to a different Solicitor to get proper advice. If you have a mortgage then the valuation/mortgage should have been in relation to those Deeds you had title to only which is the transfer from vendors to you. It seems the title to the meadow was discussed as you dont talk about sheep or cutting or maintaining when you have legal title to the land. Did your Solicitor get a statutory declaration of use? You may be able,as predecessors in title,to make an application. For the moment, I would block from your title lands,any access the neighbour has to the meadow. There was reference to passing your lands. Close this up along the boundary of your titled lands. Exclusive use is required for adverse possession. If you cant own the land then at least make sure they dont have exclusive use. Cut the grass. Put table and chairs there, dry your clothes. This will stop exclusive possession and their right to build which seems your primary concern.