To think JK Rowling is a fabulous human being

[TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair]

I just came across her book, 'Very Good Lives' which is all about overcoming adversity. I think it's so important that successful women talk about the times they've failed and how success is about pushing past that. I'm reading it just at a time I need to hear that message. I can definitely recommend buying a copy if you are in need of a boost or have some pennies to spend on something nourishing.

I was also looking into her charity, Lumos, and I had no idea just how much she was trying to help disadvantaged children. I love that she's putting her money and position to good use.

The term 'national treasure' generally makes me want to poke my own eyeballs out with a rusty kitchen utensil but AIBU to say she is an utter treasure and we are lucky to have her. She makes the world a better place.

That's all!

Womens spaces. There are very very rare cases of men "pretending to be trans" in order to gain access to womens spaces.

No one has to pretend to be anything. You just say you're a woman.

I can't think of a better word right now.. but a trans woman should not be castigated for how they behave.
They can behave how they bloody well please once the behaviour takes place outside women's spaces.

A baby, born, will be assigned the sex that they appear to be when born. As we all know, in, admittedly, rare cases, their external genetalia don't always match their chromosomal sex. Chromosomal sex isn't checked at birth.

It is simply "does this child have a vulva or a penis".

Not all women menstruate, and not all who menstruate are women.

Quite right, @Datun, and we know Baroness Sal Brinton of the LibDems has already said as much, as described on this thread. Anlaf did a transcript (timestamp is Wed 18-Jul-18 23:14:51. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3310443-Fawcett-Society-Live-stream-from-5-30pm-Courage-Calls-Ask-her-to-stand

SB: ...On the issue about would I be happy with 50% transwomen. Absolutely. A transwoman is a woman. And in my party [lib dems] the issue about identification has been self-identification, it is not as has been whispered by some, something you can change your mind and do ten minutes beforehand [much nodding from Alison Thewliss of SNP] we all know who our transwomen are and we support them

@WikkiTikkiWoo

A baby, born, will be assigned the sex that they appear to be when born. As we all know, in, admittedly, rare cases, their external genetalia don't always match their chromosomal sex. Chromosomal sex isn't checked at birth.

It is simply "does this child have a vulva or a penis".

In that case it's an observation. Assignment has nothing to do with it.

@SomewhereInbetween1

Not all women menstruate, and not all who menstruate are women.

Bullshit. But you know this...

[quote BlueBlazerBlack]@WikkiTikkiWoo Caster Semenya is intersex...

Womens spaces. There are very very rare cases of men "pretending to be trans" in order to gain access to womens spaces.

An example that springs to mind is Karen White: a convicted sex offender who self-identified as a woman and went on to abuse female prisoners. How many Karen Whites do we need before we can discuss the conflict of rights without being labelled transphobic?[/quote]
Yes. Yes. There are very rare cases where this has happened.

Should every single transwoman be tarred with this brush?

This thread may be useful for anyone who believes that it is very, very rare for men to try to abuse self-ID for their own gains.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Please note, this DOES NOT imply that transwomen are predators or whatever, but it does highlight the issue with self-ID as a policy, and it shows that there are legitimate concerns about maintaining female only spaces for the safety and dignity of women

Does it matter how rare they are? One is still too many.

@WikkiTikkiWoo is it transphobic to object to self-ID on the grounds it could put vulnerable girls and women at risk?

Also, please stop equating trans with intersex, this is offensive to both groups... I think you'll find that intersex people make up a much smaller proportion of the human population than trans-identified people

Why not? We already treat men as higher risk than women. We know not all men are violent or sexual predators, but as there's no easy way to pick out those who are, we ask them all to stay out of women's toilets, changing rooms, refuges and so on, we have women's prisons separate from men's and we insist on a chaperone for male HCPs performing intimate procedures on female patients.

No Wikky not at all, nobody should be tarred with a brush, but when vunerable adults and or children are involved, one incident is enough to change guidelines on safe guarding. The same should apply to women.

How many women need to be abused before it's deemed worthy to look at, one is too many for my liking, but would 10 maybe 15 women's life's ruined be enough to say, hmm we might have a slight issue here?

WikkiTikkiWoo A really good reference point to start to understand is FondofBeetles on twitter (pinned to the top at the moment). She and another expert interpreted the data from 11 independent studies to pull together an excellent reference. She also has spoken on panels about this. The last one I remember is the Women's Rugby panel last year.

The outcomes were that it was more about whether the person had gone through male puberty (although there are other factors from birth as well). Once puberty has occurred, the biological advantages of strength, speed, musculature, lung & heart capacity etc, does not diminish significantly with less testosterone and increased estrogen.

And I think there are articles about Caster Semenya having gone through a male puberty rather than a female puberty. I am happy to be proven wrong on this.

That was in answer to this, btw. Should every single transwoman be tarred with this brush?

Not all women menstruate, Correct - and, as I am sure you know, JK did not say they did.

not all who menstruate are women. Of course they are. They may not identify as women or not wish to be women, and I can only imagine how distressing that must be. But if they were men they would not menstruate.

Should every single transwoman be tarred with this brush?

Complete strawman. No one is tarring anybody with anything.

You are prioritising a group of people, who, strangely enough, conform to the same level of male pattern violence as every other man in the country.

And in addition, you are giving every single predator in the country license to access women. And you have no way of preventing it.

I think JK Rowling is just... one of the best human beings on the planet.

It probably helps that her views (as publically stated) all chime with mine - so she must be alright

It is not transphobic to defend women's rights.

Reading the Ickabog with DD has given us something to look forward to everyday, and reading her Twitter comments on the children's drawings has been beautiful.

@TooOldForSims

yes, you're right. Assign is the wrong word, but it is the word that has been used throughout this discussion, and so for want of a better word, I used that.

or actually. Maybe it is correct. As a Doctor will complete records based on those observations, and that child will then be recorded as that sex. Thus, that sex will have been assigned to them. From an observation.

Being able to see the potential for wrong doing (and being in possession of a penis is all the potential necessary) is hardly "tarring everyone with the same brush".
Use your fecking brain, for a God's sake.

Thus, that sex will have been assigned to them. From an observation.
No. The word "assign" suggests a choice has been made. There is no choice.

I have to ask - for the people that are adamant that transwomen are women, do you actually believe what you're saying? Like, 100% and no doubt about it? You don't actually see them as men but just think everyone should be kind?

I cannot understand how people can actually believe in this and never once doubt what they are saying.

@Datun

Should every single transwoman be tarred with this brush?

Complete strawman. No one is tarring anybody with anything.

You are prioritising a group of people, who, strangely enough, conform to the same level of male pattern violence as every other man in the country.

And in addition, you are giving every single predator in the country license to access women. And you have no way of preventing it.

So. No transwoman should be given access to any female spaces?

A transwoman should not be able to use female toilets for example?

Even thought it is obvious that they would be at HUGE risk by using male toilets?

And what about the transwomen that aren't so obviously transwomen? I have met trans women I would have had no idea were trans unless they had told me. Or is it only the transwomen who meet our ideals of femininity? What then about butch females?

Not all men are rapists/voyeurs/abusers. A few men are, hence we have separate facilities for men and women.
Self-ID is problematic for women because it only takes one man to use self-ID for nefarious reasons. Nobody is saying that transwomen should be tarred with the same brush, but what we are saying is that the very fact that women have already been abused in at least one case by a transwoman, should mean that self-ID as a policy is examined and implemented more carefully.

I liked JK Rowling's Tweet. The 'sex is real' one, not the menstruators one. Ever since I have been wondering if I should unlike it in case someone reports me to my employer.

Even if you have a different view on this issue, surely you can appreciate how ridiculous it is that we have got to a place where this is a genuine concern?