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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

BLM - Worried about the anti-police sentiment in UK

166 replies

Balhammom · 07/06/2020 22:42

I went to a local BLM protest y’day. It was passionate and very good natured (and, before anyone asks, generally socially distanced).

The overall BLM message is clearly very important. I do not want to live in a world where black communities are treated differently or feel like their lives are worth less what anyone else’s.

However, the anti (UK) police sentiment troubled me. I know this isn’t universal but lots of signs features “ACAB” and messages like “defund the police “.

I appreciate the hostility towards US police, particularly in the context of the truly appalling death of George Floyd. However, how can it be okay to treat the UK police with the same hostility?

In London, in particular, hundreds of young people are dying from black-on-black violence. A generation are at risk from drug gangs. I have no doubt many protestors could name the handful of black people who have died following encounters with Uk police. But how many could name even the last couple of black murder victims?

I know they’re not perfect, but so many police are working so hard to literally save lives from gangs and solve some of these dreadful murders. Shouldn’t we all be helping them with this? Doesn’t BLM require us to end all types of unjustified deaths that disproportionately affect the black community?

OP posts:
AintNoMaryPoppins · 08/06/2020 07:54

It’s time we tried funding the people who can instead

I agree with everything apart from the world instead. They should be funded as well.

Unless you'd be happy for the police to be unable to turn up when you report a crime or need them for anything? I'm assuming instead of dialling 999 you'd call one of these other organisations instead?

Ylfa · 08/06/2020 08:04

We can definitely reduce our dependence on the police for things like noise complaints, interpersonal problems and concerns about mental ill health simply by getting to know our own neighbours. We can invest in our collective safety instead of accepting that while the police make some white people feel safe this often comes at the expense of black people’s wellbeing.

zscaler · 08/06/2020 08:19

Unless you'd be happy for the police to be unable to turn up when you report a crime or need them for anything? I'm assuming instead of dialling 999 you'd call one of these other organisations instead?

No - that’s exactly what the police should be for. Responding to emergencies, addressing crimes as they are happening.

They shouldn’t be arresting the mentally ill, they shouldn’t be tackling deep rooted community issues, they shouldn’t be educating children about drugs or policing drug users who are not committing crimes (except the use of illegal drugs), they shouldn’t be carrying out stop and search tactics, they shouldn’t be kettling protesters.

AintNoMaryPoppins · 08/06/2020 08:30

@zscaler

Unless you'd be happy for the police to be unable to turn up when you report a crime or need them for anything? I'm assuming instead of dialling 999 you'd call one of these other organisations instead?

No - that’s exactly what the police should be for. Responding to emergencies, addressing crimes as they are happening.

They shouldn’t be arresting the mentally ill, they shouldn’t be tackling deep rooted community issues, they shouldn’t be educating children about drugs or policing drug users who are not committing crimes (except the use of illegal drugs), they shouldn’t be carrying out stop and search tactics, they shouldn’t be kettling protesters.

No, but the answer isn't to cut their funding even further. The answer is to fund the organisations that should be dealing with all of those things properly in the first place. Not removing it from a public service that need it for Responding to emergencies, addressing crimes as they are happening.

If you want more funding for those particular organisations, then absolutely I agree with you and I'll support that entirely, but you don't do it by removing it from another public service.

MadameMarie · 08/06/2020 08:36

@Porpoises

Knife crime is horrendous. But is the current approach working? Abolitionists don't want people to get murdered anymore than anyone else does. But they point out that our prison system is failing at rehabilitation, that disproportionate stop and search is alienating young black people from the force that claims to serve them. Would money spent on the roll out of tasers be more effective funding youth clubs and inner city schools?

I'm no expert, but I think it's worth hearing out those who are asking for an alternative. Campaign Against Prison Expansion have put on a webinar with 6 women working in the area, its very interesting listening. m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1101068206937175&id=1498007623803312 (starts 8 minutes in)

The police have took a step back in recent years in London. Partly in a response to the 2011 riots, partly due to a very liberal mayor and partly due to austerity cuts.

London being a warzone is the result.

SandyY2K · 08/06/2020 08:45

The police in Bristol allowed the statue to come down because they appreciate the strength of feeling.

Absolutely. Very sensible of them, otherwise it could have become violent if they intervened.

It's an insult to black people that it stood there in the first place. Such cruelty to the black people treated like trash and thrown overboard when the slave ships were full and subject to a life of misery if they survived.

Shamessly treated like their lives didn't matter because of their skin colour and a man who was a major part of such an unhumane trade stands glorified..... and before anyone says it, just because the slave trade was legal, doesn't and didn't make it right.

Herja · 08/06/2020 09:06

At the BLM march I went to yesterday, one of the speakers (aged 19) spoke of how aged 13 (6 years ago, so recent) he was stop n searched. He had walked down his road, no more. He was asked to get in the car to be searched, he felt unsafe so asked to be searched on the street.

He was hit around the back of his head so hard he had an imprint of the handcuffs used to do it. Back up was called - his hip was dislocated so badly while he was thrown to the floor he needed major surgery.

He spoke of how scared he was, how this was his first interaction with police, how he thought he was going to die. HE WAS 13 YEARS OLD! I can certainly see why he, his family and friends might think the police might be racist and not view them very kindly...

1000s of people have stories like this. This is not ok. UK police are less racist than US police, but less racist is still racist.

In an argument about systemic racism, that some officers are not racist doesn't matter. Just as NAMALT, Not All Police Are Like That either - enough are that it's clearly a problem though.

Notejode · 08/06/2020 09:26

Quote Balhammom

I agree with you 100 percent and so many other people I know.

BananaSpanner · 08/06/2020 09:27

@zscaler

Unless you'd be happy for the police to be unable to turn up when you report a crime or need them for anything? I'm assuming instead of dialling 999 you'd call one of these other organisations instead?

No - that’s exactly what the police should be for. Responding to emergencies, addressing crimes as they are happening.

They shouldn’t be arresting the mentally ill, they shouldn’t be tackling deep rooted community issues, they shouldn’t be educating children about drugs or policing drug users who are not committing crimes (except the use of illegal drugs), they shouldn’t be carrying out stop and search tactics, they shouldn’t be kettling protesters.

I think the police would love to have some of these responsibilities taken from them particularly in relation to mental health.

I can see difficulties where there are overlaps in responsibilities though and the wrong agency sent to deal.

Stop and search is clearly loaded with issues but when used properly is a valuable tool in the fight against crime. The basic example of a robbery having just been committed, area search-person matching description of offender located, stopped and searched and stolen item recovered. Or person acting suspiciously in area of high vehicle crime near to vehicle with smashed window at night. Seen to put conceal an item in jacket, stopped searched and chisel and stolen items recovered. Would you honestly remove these powers from police?

In relation to kettling protesters, who should be keeping order at protests, private companies? What powers would they have, what qualifications would they have? Who would train them? What would happen when it spilled into violence (which would be more likely with nobody nearby with a power of arrest).

These are genuine questions because as I said, I think the police would greatly appreciate a lesser load but not at the expense of an increase in crime or being brought in to sort out the mess on the occasions when it has gone horribly wrong.

Iwalkinmyclothing · 08/06/2020 09:39

What is your experience of the police?

The police have generally been lovely to me. I work in mental health now and for years beforehand had a variety of community roles (children and families, housing, drug and alcohol recovery, CMHT). The police are generally not lovely to my service users, particularly when they are not aware they are being observed. If I were spoken to and touched by the police in the way I have witnessed happening to
members of other social groups over and over and over for decades, I would not have a positive regard for the police either.

Also, the 'most police are great it's just a few bad apples' line is bullshit; if you don't stand up to and report your 'bad apple' colleagues you are complicit and just as guilty.

BananaSpanner · 08/06/2020 09:43

@Iwalkinmyclothing

What is your experience of the police?

The police have generally been lovely to me. I work in mental health now and for years beforehand had a variety of community roles (children and families, housing, drug and alcohol recovery, CMHT). The police are generally not lovely to my service users, particularly when they are not aware they are being observed. If I were spoken to and touched by the police in the way I have witnessed happening to
members of other social groups over and over and over for decades, I would not have a positive regard for the police either.

Also, the 'most police are great it's just a few bad apples' line is bullshit; if you don't stand up to and report your 'bad apple' colleagues you are complicit and just as guilty.

I know it doesn’t suit your argument but colleagues reporting inappropriate behavior absolutely does happen. And if one colleague complained about racist behaviour of another whilst a 3rd stood by and ignored it, the 3rd officer would also face disciplinary action also.
PinkSparklyPussyCat · 08/06/2020 09:47

@BovaryX, I agree with everything you've said. Thank you for mentioning David Dorn, his murder seems to have been forgotten about. The fact it was streamed on FB is disgraceful and I have no idea why anyone thinks doing that will help their cause.

Herja · 08/06/2020 09:57

@Iwalkinmyclothing

What is your experience of the police?

The police have generally been lovely to me. I work in mental health now and for years beforehand had a variety of community roles (children and families, housing, drug and alcohol recovery, CMHT). The police are generally not lovely to my service users, particularly when they are not aware they are being observed. If I were spoken to and touched by the police in the way I have witnessed happening to
members of other social groups over and over and over for decades, I would not have a positive regard for the police either.

Also, the 'most police are great it's just a few bad apples' line is bullshit; if you don't stand up to and report your 'bad apple' colleagues you are complicit and just as guilty.

That's why I don't trust them. And no, nor do I use them. Not for muggings, or rapes or bodily injury. I would if I needed a crime reference for insurance, or murder or child abuse (though frankly, they weren't helpful for that either). This is because my experience of police is unfailingly rude, dismissive, physical, unhelpful and unkind. I'd made that realisation by the age of 18, so have never involved them in my life. I don't know anyone but my grandma who has had happy police experiences.
Iwalkinmyclothing · 08/06/2020 10:02

I know it doesn’t suit your argument

Doesn't 'suit my argument'? It's not an argument, it's an accurate account of what I have witnessed again and again over the years.

but colleagues reporting inappropriate behavior absolutely does happen

I know that. Why are you trying to imply I said it doesn't?>

I also know there are many incidences where it does not happen. And those people are complicit.

and if one colleague complained about racist behaviour of another whilst a 3rd stood by and ignored it, the 3rd officer would also face disciplinary action also.

Yes. If. But there are many times that no colleagues complain, or intervene. Denying that would be absurd.

MrsTumbletap · 08/06/2020 10:12

Where is the proof that the police are fundamentally racist? Where is the proof?

Because a handful (yes a handful) of people have died in custody in the UK over the last 20 years? That isn't proof.

Police are risking their lives against these idiots throwing bottles and bricks at them. Because they want what? What is it exactly? Does anyone actually know? No. No one knows what they are fighting for.

Of course black lives matter, of course we should not allow racism if any form. But we should not let it excuse their shitty behaviour right now.

I'm all for peaceful protests, even passionate protests. But attacking the people that are here to protect us is bloody ridiculous.

Police deserve a pay rise.

BananaSpanner · 08/06/2020 10:17

@Iwalkinmyclothing

I know it doesn’t suit your argument

Doesn't 'suit my argument'? It's not an argument, it's an accurate account of what I have witnessed again and again over the years.

but colleagues reporting inappropriate behavior absolutely does happen

I know that. Why are you trying to imply I said it doesn't?>

I also know there are many incidences where it does not happen. And those people are complicit.

and if one colleague complained about racist behaviour of another whilst a 3rd stood by and ignored it, the 3rd officer would also face disciplinary action also.

Yes. If. But there are many times that no colleagues complain, or intervene. Denying that would be absurd.

I was responding to your last paragraph, which related to it being a few bad apples being bullshit and therefore all police being complicit. That suggested to me that you think that police don’t report incidents of racism and abuse from the colleagues if and when they see it. . I am glad you understand that it does happen.

This thread has been interesting for me in relation to the defund police argument. The police absolutely should not have funds removed but increased funds for partner agencies to take more of their responsibilities is definitely something that could be a step in the right direction if done very carefully.

Siameasy · 08/06/2020 10:47

The police are members of the public like anyone else. At the heart of the matter is this: all non-black people harbour some anti-black prejudice.

If you read White Fragility Di Angelo talks about this and it is painful to read. I am white and definitely have unconscious anti-black prejudice. It is born of decades of conditioning, subliminal messages, the media, parents, peers, school etc etc. We all have it. Di Angelo says it is inevitable. Of course Police have it too-they are us. All non black people are infected. And black people internalise it.

No doubt being in the police worsens and validates the prejudice. Police desperately need regular anti bias training for instance. Plus most non black officers’ contact with young black males is negative and then dehumanisation takes place. Not surprising really. None of you would be any different.

Then there is the herd mentality in the police which may explain why none of the other officers at Floyds death tried to stop it.

But anti-black sentiment is there in everyone almost from the start so any non-black person (particularly whites) saying “ACAB” and feeling smug-“the racist is you too.”

Iwalkinmyclothing · 08/06/2020 10:58

I was responding to your last paragraph, which related to it being a few bad apples being bullshit and therefore all police being complicit

All police who are aware and do not act are complicit. All people who are aware and do not act are complicit.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 08/06/2020 11:07

Defund the police’ doesn’t mean ‘let’s have no police at all’. It means ‘let’s spend some of that huge police budget on other tools, so that we don’t just have hammers in our toolbox’.

So when you take away their funding you won't expect them to be social workers,mental health professionals, etc then? When every other service underperforms or fails it's the police that has to pick up the pieces.

How many police have been killed on duty? Perhaps we could remember them?

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 08/06/2020 12:04

Huge police budget? That would be the budget that has been cut by successive governments. You really want to cut it further?

flirtygirl · 08/06/2020 12:11

There was a thread on here recently talking about people interactions with the police and it was overwhelmingly negative.

I think that if are black and you receive daily microaggresions, stop and search, the police car slowing down to look at you, police car following you or even stopping you. The different voice and stance taken when the police talk to you as opposed to the voice and stance you have just seen them take with a white person.

This happens constantly all your life with your interactions. And the bame within the police often follow suit as they do not want to be targeted more by their own (they already are) but want to be seen as having their face fit.

Image now this is repeated with social workers, teachers, shop workers and some medical staff.

Then politicians and the government turn around and tell you like Matt Hancock just did, that Britain is not racist.

It's all different shades of bullshit day, after day from birth to death when you are black.

But lets be upset because some good police are being called bastard. Well if they don't want to be called bastards then they need to change. Change what they do, day in day out and the silent ones need to tackle it when they see it instead of being silent and complicit.

However tackling it from within is hard. One of my mum's school friends became a police man and he was hounded out. It took them nearly 20 years but they finally did it. He refused to be complicit and he was black.

Read the reports about bame demotions and failure to promote within the police. Cases and challenges bought about it over many years.

Many many reports are written. Written about the police, the criminal justice and court systems. The prison system. The 2011 riots, Windrush, Grenfell you name it.

This country loves a report and loves to say we spent this amount on this report. But they never listen to the reports and most reports fail to get any real sort of grip on the problem. Nothing is implemented properly if at all.

So I don't think it was disgusting that a stature of a slavery was torn down. People had asked for it to be removed for years and nothing had been done. How many more years do black people need to wait to be listened to? Is over 400 years not enough?

Why should people in the US and here wait 400 years for proper change. Segregation did not really end in the US. So a black person can sit anywhere on the bus but still can't travel anywhere, work anywhere or live anywhere in the country in which they were born. They can't sleep in their bed, relax in their home, birdwatch or return home from work or a party. Can't drive their car or change a tire on the side of the road. Can't do anything without fear and suspicion from the people ie the police, who are meant to be protecting them.

It is no surprise that they do not call on the police. I have seen it first hand, a black women calling the police for help and the questions and suspicion immediately turned on her.

So no all police are bastards but for many are. They are sometimes bastards to the white people they serve, they are utter bastards to the bame people they serve.

Too many black people get longer sentences than white people. In this country to be fair the same happens if you are a woman who committed a traditionally male crime or a lower class person. So yes class and sex works against you too. Add your race into that and no wonder black people are over represented when the sentences they receive are longer and harsher. They are already more likely to be viewed as lower class. And black women fall at the bottom.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras
And police killed on duty are rightly remembered but what the hell has that got to do with justice and equality for black people, that we are talking about here.

They can be remembered and should be discussed but that is not part of this discussion.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 08/06/2020 14:41

And police killed on duty are rightly remembered but what the hell has that got to do with justice and equality for black people, that we are talking about here.

Are they remembered? Can anyone name then? I think it's relevant to discuss officers who were killed in the line of duty on a thread where people are calling ACAB

ProfessorSlocombe · 08/06/2020 14:46

How long ago was the Stephen Lawrence inquiry ? Has anything really changed since ?

MarieInternette · 08/06/2020 15:25

@Siameasy
“All non black people harbour some anti black predjudice”

That is one of the most disgraceful comments I have read on mn. How dare you generalise in such a way? Imagine the calls of “Racist” if you replaced the words black with white? Maybe if you spent less time reading anti white propaganda your views would be less offensive.

And if you think that rioting in the streets, injuring police (who are people just trying to do their jobs keep people safe) shouting offensive slogans like ACAB, terrorising police horses, damaging property etc, will help people reduce their “anti black predjudice” you are sorely mistaken. If anything it will reinforce those views for those who held them previously.

Jangirl2018 · 08/06/2020 15:40

The police harass black people, particularly black men regularly.

JME a popular artist documents his interactions with them, as he drives a nice car so is repeatedly stopped and accused of having stole it. When questioned for the reasons of the ‘lawful traffic stop’ the excuses are flimsy and dishonest. He is never aggressive and always compliant yet still repeatedly targeted. Take a look for yourself. In one video he is literally parked and sitting in his car waiting for someone, and is approached and asked what is he doing/is he dealing drugs. This happens to most black men regularly. Is it really a surprise they hate the police?