You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

To suggest that Travellers can just forget about our culture, to just stop being Traveller is disgusting. We have faced ethnic cleansing! Can you not see how wrong it is to suggest that? I'm really bloody upset that anyone could think that.

Travellers (and GR) routinely have human rights denied. Anyone who bothers to spend even a quick google on it will be aware.

Seriously, all I've asked is that people don't deny the racism we face and not to make untrue statements about us.

Don't think I can stomach reading anymore. Thank you to all who try to at least understand .

Look, this is seriously ridiculous. This is supposed to be a thread to support BLM.

@EarringsandLipstick, you came back on the thread last night to bring up white minorities. You have been haranguing the OP over this issue and I sincerely thing you should stop. @Chulainn, I don't think you have been in such a way, but I don't know or care for the history. Posting timelines of what someone else says suggests you have been putting a lot of mental energy into this.

@PatricksRum, you have become involved in a debate about something that isn't relevant to the cause and about which I really don't think you understand (please don't think I'm insulting your intelligence - you don't need to understand every culture in the country). To those who have supported Patricks unfailingly, fine, but I call out all forms of racism and prejudice and felt utterly uncomfortable with a discussion about another culture that was so ill-informed and was going nowhere.

We don't have to negate or diminish the experience of any community to support BLM. We can just not talk about it. I'm going to absolutely try not to talk about it again. Whenever this thread has not talked about it, it has actually turned to the matter at hand.

I read The Chesnut Cafe's post last night and I'm sure it resonated with others. I have been aware of my white privilege for years, probably due to the area in which I now live. But this thread has made me think and challenge some of the ways it presents, and I hope that as I continue reading, I will continue to be challenged on white privilege and BLM, without reading seemingly endless distractions.

So if they don't have White Privilege how are they able to be racist against black people?

I have plenty of Irish friends and have spent time in Ireland. The most racist remark I ever heard was from someone I had considered a good friend, a sophisticated young Irish woman who was a graduate student from Trinity who I was in graduate school with in the USA. This article may be 20 years old, but I know for a fact plenty of Irish people still hold the same opinions.
Racism in Ireland

The issue it seems to me is one of White Fragility, we feel uncomfortable having to examine the reality that society is very much set up for our benefit.
White Fragility

@qweryuiop a bad night's sleep is the reason for the timeline. That, and it didn't sit right with me how the OP blamed myself and Earrings for discussing Travellers when she was, at times, pushing the agenda. I don't intend to discuss it further. To be honest, I don't think anyone could top @Wizadorawobble post. It says succinctly everything that needs to be said on racism against Travellers and the erroneous opinion that white people don't experience racism. White people experiencing racism doesn't and shouldn't detract from black people experiencing racism. I only refer to it as it's the title of the thread.

If my link to racism in Ireland seemed out of date here's something within the past week
Racism in Ireland

@Wishingstarr I'm sorry for the racism you have experienced. I, as a white Irish person, have white privilege. I said Irish Travellers don't have white privilege as they are identifiable even amongst white people. The racist Trinity graduate would not have been from the travelling community. Very few Travellers are successful in going on to 3rd level education in Ireland. According to the Irish Times in Dec 2018, only 1% of travellers go on to 3rd level. It's a shocking statistic. Ireland must do better. I am not denying Irish people can be racist. How can I after talking at length about how badly Travellers are treated in Ireland. Education and open dialogue is one way to combat it. The Government needs to do much more to stamp it out.

It might be an idea to change the title of the thread if you want the focus to be on BLM and what we can do as a country to specifically address the racism that black people face.

Different ethnic minorities experience different stereotypes/exclusions in different contexts. The strategies to address these are going to be different. Hopefully a focus on racism against black people will be synergistic with efforts to help other minorities. That also means being thoughtful about the timing of when we raise awareness - so as not to detract from each other.

Don’t see why anyone is surprised at some of the responses to the title of the original posts. If this is just about. Alan then have the title amended but an AIBU with the statement that write people don’t experience racism will provoke debate.

[quote Thepigeonsarecoming]@PatricksRum you could have named your threads anything relating to BLM, but you named them “You're white you haven't experienced racism”

This is the one any only reason you have other people such as Irish Travellers disputing you

Most people in mumsnet supports you, you don’t need to antagonise other people who feel your pain already[/quote]
I think this is my feelings too about the title.

I don't experience the same type of racism as a black person. I wouldn't be stopped in a car for the colour of my skin. I can't feel the pain, injustice and anger that the op shows in their posts over numerous threads. Feelings that grow from a lifetime of prejudice.

But I can't agree that no white groups have experienced racism. Specifically do white English people in England experience it? I'd say no. Can other white presenting people experience racism? I'd say yes. In my local area white polish people face racist comments, in a line up of white people I think we could spot the difference and seeing a name on a job application we could spot the difference.

It's also deeper than skin colour. I have an Indian colleague, their skin is black, but they aren't a black person, they are an Indian person. This particular person has made a very racist comment about black people which I had to challenge just as I would if they had white skin.
A black person from Somalia has different facial features to a black person from Ghana their skin colour specifically might be the same, but they look different. So three sets of people with the same skin tone, different features, but one of these sees the others as somehow lesser.

How do we stop this division?

@Wishingstarrsorry I didn't address your point on Travellers making racist comments against black people. To be honest, I can't. It's inexcusable and appalling. Over the past few days (in Ireland) I have seen some disturbing comments on social media of black youths threatening white youths because they are white. One white youth was stabbed by a black youth. It appears to be racially motivated. Perhaps sometimes the oppressed becomes the oppressor. It's still wrong though.

If I'm understanding this correctly, could it be said that Irish Travellers have white privilege from a Black person's point of view but not from a White Irish person's point of view? The reason they're not seen to have white privilege from a White Irish person's pov is simply white privilege itself. Meaning, they're seen as "second hand white people" by white people?

Chulainn just to clarify, I am white. The Irish friend said something to me which she saw as a joke and I consider the most racist comment I have heard said in my presence. No she wasn't a Traveler, but Travelers are culturally Irish and very traditional. I have personally been present when I have heard racist or clueless racism (the "naive" racism described in the article) by Irish people of both sexes and a range of ages and backgrounds, young and old. Some of the absolute worst comments were from the best educated.

Tyson Fury was openly racist, he apologized but he was very comfortable saying it at the time. I worked alongside an Irish Traveler (seasonally) and she admitted that Travelers were racist against black people. She was based in London. Tyson is from South Machester. My co-worker put it down to the insularity of the community.

My point is, whatever prejudice Travelers experience they also participate in racism as much as any Irish cultural group.

WhenAll, I don't know the answer to that question. Black Irish people would be able to identify Travellers. Travellers have the poorest outcome of all groups in Ireland. Black people are better educated, better integrated in Irish society. I personally doubt black people would consider travellers to have white privilege but I could be wrong.

@Wishingstarr I can't defend racists. It's never acceptable to make racist comments or discriminate against someone because of their race. Ireland has a problem with racism and it needs to be addressed. The explanation given by your work colleague is plausible. As a Traveller herself, she's best placed to know why Travellers can be racist towards black people. My discussion on this thread wasn't to say Travellers are perfect or aren't racist but to say that the OPs denial that white people can't suffer from racism was flawed.

Just want to clarify, I am not suggesting that the Irish are any more or less racist than any other majority white society. None of us can be naive enough though to claim "I am not racist" the very reason we can move comfortably through society without reflecting if we are white is because of the privilege we are oblivious to.

Me just as anyone else. My girls and I (they are 19 & 17) had a conversation tonight with their dad (my family is white American). They were trying to explain to him why some of his opinions had an unconcious racial bias. It was definitely a good, if exasperating conversation to have. I think so many of us are really trying to talk openly about so many ways we can struggle to see racism and understand how we benefit from racism.

1pm my time. Talk to you all tomorrow!

Even when you are a member of the legal profession and black it does not protect you.

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10163815598875375&id=577245374

I agree Choco and to quote Di Angelo we (non-black people) are all infected in some way with anti-black prejudice and no one is immune. I just posted similar on the police thread. White liberals love to point at racist police like the problem is just police. Sorry it’s you and me. As Di A says - it is inevitable “it’s the water we swim in”. I feel until this is addressed by non-black people (Whites in particular) we will get no where. It’s a terrible secret no one dares speak about.

we (non-black people) are all infected in some way with anti-black prejudice and no one is immune.

But isn't prejudice about the views you hold rather than the colour you are born.

@Wishingstarr
Thank you so much for coming back to the these and supporting me.
I went to bed upset last night thinking I'd discrimated against another oppressed ethnic group by asking a question.
This is what happens and it's so clear.

As a black woman I get shut down and shut down again.

@Chulainn What your list misses out is this is the fourth thread with the same people commenting about Travellers.

I have acknowledged in every thread that travellers are oppressed, that they receive disgusting abuse and I don't agree with it but I've asked not to speak about it now, on this thread.
You then get the same posters, @EarringsandLipstick @Hearhoovesthinkzebras repeatedly coming back and mentioning travellers. I say I know they are oppressed but not in the same way we are. I don't want to discuss it here, on this thread.
Four threads in I say OK let's discuss it because you keep coming back and hijacking my threads.

So I ask which unique features do they possess that makes them identifiable as much so as black people?
I then get told I am not answering. I say OK let's move on. Nope. They aren't happy with that. Because I'm a black woman and I can't possibly just have this moment, that would give me too much power.

I then get piled on for asking a question.
Interestingly @WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee posts saying she recognises that Irish travellers can be identified by some Irish people but because this isn't always the case it means they have a privilege at times that black people don't.
@Chulainn thanks her
OK, I think, that's true. I agree and echo her words but nope I'm not right but Coffee is because I'm a black woman and I can't hold any power.

I then get told to stop.
OK let's stop let's agree to disagree
@EarringsandLipstick says NO. You Stop but I won't agree to disagree.
Essentially I must be quiet and agree with them.
You're a black woman, you cannot possibly hold your own view points, you must think like me now.

The more I think about it the more I am disgusted of being accused of being racially prejudiced and discriminative towards travellers.

None of these posters are Travellers. They don't care about travellers, they just want to use anything to take my moment away from me.

Even @Flaxmeadow can come on and understand my point without accusing me.

Unbelievable

*you could have named your threads anything relating to BLM, but you named them “You're white you haven't experienced racism”
*I've responded to this already.
A) I can band then what I like
B) it's a short sweeping statement

*This is the one any only reason you have other people such as Irish Travellers disputing you
*No.
These posters aren't Irish travellers. They're white people who don't want me to be heard.

Most people in mumsnet supports you, you don’t need to antagonise other people who feel your pain already
How am I antagonising anyone? It's the other way round

Her words were considered offensive, distressing, disturbing, discriminatory and bigoted. Nobody has commented on that.

^discrimination
/dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:
All
Psychology
Electronics
noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.^

I haven't treated a traveller in any bad way, let alone because of their ethnicity.

Interestingly, the 2nd definition:

^2.
recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.^

It is all of you who are recognising they are different, I have not

*When we visited New York a few years ago we were walking around Broadway when the cinema let out, and all of a sudden DH and I were surrounded by mostly young black people. I remember being petrified that I was going to have my bag snatched.

I'm embarrassed and ashamed to admit that.*
If you can recognise it's wrong and learn from it then don't be ashamed! I don't condone it but if that is what gave you your light bulb moment then that's great!*

I've read all of these threads and I must admit I'd never thought of white privilege being a thing. DH thinks it's more a class / money thing but the way I see it if you're poor and white you still have more privilege than someone who is poor and black.*
Right this is the point I've repeatedly made.
Anything a poster claims is oppressed, being poor, bring a traveller etc. If any of these can be made worse by being black then they don't experience racism as bad as black people.*

Very thought provoking threads op.*
Thank you