You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

@PatricksRum

https://eyeshotstreetphotography.com/joseph-philippe-bevillard-irish-travellers/

This is a great piece.
I love the story behind it.
In the pictures I wouldn't be able to tell them apart from other Irish people.

The fact that you can't is irrelevant. You aren't in Ireland. In Ireland, they don't have white privilege. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

You are being offensive towards Travellers. That's not acceptable.

I maintain they have a privilege that black people don't.
You maintain they don't.
We won't alter our opinions this way.
We agree to disagree and leave it there.

I will never agree to disagree with you on this.

I and others provided you with all the information you need to know that in Ireland yes, even beside a black person (your suggestion) Travellers will not occupy a place of privilege.

Please stop.

I understand some people, particularly in Ireland, can pick out a traveller from their appearance alone.

All people can pick out a black person from appearsnce alone.

The difference in numbers means in this scenario they have a privilege that black people don't.

This is my opinion.

You have a different opinion.

I won't change my mind with this repetition.

You won't change your mind with this reputation.

We'll agree to disagree.

They are subject to repeat racial discrimination. It's not right.

That's ironic.

I've finally reported you on this.

I really hope @MNHQ listen & take action, in some way.

Though in a way, I think your awful posts should stand for people in the morning to see how prejudiced you are.

*They are subject to repeat racial discrimination. It's not right.

That's ironic.*

I've never discriminated against a traveller. I never would.
I've stated I can't even pick them out so how am I doing this?
Stating someone has a privilege isn't discriminatory.

Though in a way, I think your awful posts should stand for people in the morning to see how prejudiced you are.
I'm genuinely not.
It is absolutely vile the discrimination and abuse travellers receive.
The names they are called simply because they travel.
Their inability to travel, at times, due to the discrimination and the blocking off of land.
The way they are all tarred with the same brush.
I really admire a lot of their viewpoints of things like women.
I would never say anything bad about Travellers. I haven't on this thread. If I have genuinely it is not my intention but I can't see where I have.
I asked which exclusive features they possess. I stated in another thread that my grandma is black and holds "black" features.
That isn't to offend any traveller or black person.
I don't condone prejudices of any kind towards anyone and the last thing I'd want to do on my thread is treat a traveller, or anyone differently based on their ethnicity, race, skin colour, religion or otherwise.

To keep insisting on and pressing a comparison with Irish Travelers Earrings is classic whataboutery. Absolutely noone is denying the oppression of Irish Travelers, or that others cannot identify them, but if an Irish Traveler child was taken into foster care at the age of three, in either Ireland or the UK and a black child of any cultural background both could completely lose their cultural identity but black skin is never erased or denied.

Irish travelers are able to accumulate wealth, often by rocking up at people's homes and offering to tarmac their drive, fix a roof or other home and garden work. I cannot accept that a group of black men could wander around Britain and Ireland approaching strangers to do substantial work on their houses, running into hundreds, if not thousands of pounds, which involves a high level of trust and that they would not be treated with suspicion and even fear in some places.

I wouldn't be surprised if people might even call their local police and ask if they might come out and check on them. Yes, some people are suspicious of Travelers too, but I know for an absolute fact that my cousin who has brown skin would never want to put himself in that exact situation where he would feel vulnerable and which could be potentially high risk.

You are determined to equate Irish Travelers with Black people. Noone is denying Travelers experience prejudice and abuse. However, we have Irish Traveler communities in the States. Many families have extended families across the Atlantic who they visit. In America however Irish Traveler communities were able to be established and move around the country unmolested and anonymously. There is no way a community of black people that established themselves anywhere in the USA and traveled around to meet-ups, weddings etc. would not be treated with suspicion in some communities. Especially if they were acquiring wealth, building themselves very nice homes and driving expensive cars, as is common in the Irish Traveler communities here.

Shayne Ward, Tyson Fury or Michael Gomez are accepted by the British general public and would be left alone to get on with it if they entered a pub pretty much anywhere in Britian. Black British people can still feel uncomfortable if they socialize in parts of the nation that have very few Black people living locally.

Hopefully we are doing better all the time but there are still places that are less than welcoming to black people in the UK and Ireland. One of those places is Traveler Communities themselves, Tyson is not the only Traveler who has made openly racist comments (he later apologized but his comfort level in making them was revealing).

Interesting podcast

www.aljazeera.com/podcasts/thetake/2020/06/voices-george-floyd-protests-200605185151953.html

@PatricksRum

*They are subject to repeat racial discrimination. It's not right.

That's ironic.*

I've never discriminated against a traveller. I never would.
I've stated I can't even pick them out so how am I doing this?
Stating someone has a privilege isn't discriminatory.

I didn't quote anything about privilege.

What is discriminatory is your constant harping on about what makes Travellers different and when you don't understand the answers, ignoring what's been said and still saying they have white privilege. Travellers are considered the lowest of the low in Ireland (it's awful but it's true). Your refusal to accept what I, Earrings and Google have said, because it's not clear to you, and decide if you don't understand it then it's not really true.

Your staggering insensitivity in almost wanting us to dissect a Travellers appearance to help you understand the differences is awful. Where's the empathy for what a Traveller goes through every day of their lives? Instead you dismiss it because you don't get it. Tell that to the traveller who has been forcibly removed from every place they try to make a home, or who's shouted at or spat at on the street, or who gets turned away from pubs, restaurants etc because they are identified as a Traveller. "Your pain, your issues, the discrimination you experience - it's not that bad because Patricks doesn't quite get it so doesn't think it is".

I said your line of questioning was distressing and disturbing, Qwery said it was bigoted, Earrings said it was offensive but you still continued.

I didn't want to get angry on this thread but you have really upset me tonight. You don't seem to care about anyone else's suffering as long as it doesn't trump yours.

Wishingstarr, in fairness the OP kept asking questions about Travellers. Earrings and myself were responding to those questions.

Wishingstarr, in fairness the OP kept asking questions about Travellers. Earrings and myself were responding to those questions.
No.
For at least three threads now earrings along with zebra and others has repeatedly brought up travellers and compared them to black people
I have said so many times. That is wrong but this thread is about BLM. Time and time again. It keeps coming back.
Ignoring it wasn't working so I responded and then was demanded to stop so I said so many times that we shall agree to disagree. I was then told no she will not agree. So if I don't respond I'm being dismissive and if I do respond I'm being discriminative.
I cannot win.

What is discriminatory is your constant harping on about what makes Travellers different and when you don't understand the answers, ignoring what's been said and still saying they have white privilege. Travellers are considered the lowest of the low in Ireland (it's awful but it's true). Your refusal to accept what I, Earrings and Google have said, because it's not clear to you, and decide if you don't understand it then it's not really true.
I could understand if I kept stating their differences, that could be offensive but you are doing this and I'm asking what features?
If a traveller was black would they be less privileged?
If a black person was a traveller they wouldn't be less privileged as they're already ar the bottom.

I notice you've almost completely ignored wishing's post about the struggles of being black.

With respect as a white English person I can identify Irish travellers in England based on their dress and behaviours but not on skin colour alone, but if they changed their way of speaking, dress and cultural practices/behaviours I wouldn't be able to tell them apart from another white person of similar genetic background.

It is awful the racial discrimination Irish travellers and Roma people receive, but this thread is meant to be about black lived experiences and listening to that story. A black person can change their clothes, speak perfect English in an English accent, behave in a western accepted manner to fit in more, but when driving in a car the fact that their skin is black means they are far more likely in the UK to be stopped by police. It is this systemic racism that the OP is trying to address. www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2014/feb/02/black-drivers-stopped-police.

@Choconuttolata Thank you so much for your posts @Wishingstarr
I was appalled to think I might have been discriminative towards travellers in this thread.
I've tried my hardest to keep the focus on BLM but they won't stop.
Then when I listen I'm wrong.
When I don't listen I'm wrong.
When I try to understand I'm wrong.
When I respond I'm wrong.
When I don't respond I'm wrong.
When I don't understand it I'm wrong.
When I try to understand it I'm wrong.

Thanks for your posts you've summed it up exactly

PatricksRum I am actually shocked at the intense level of what seems nothing more than a pile-on.

Why is it that a Black woman can't say I am angry, I am devastated and I want the pain of the BLM to be acknowledged at this moment in history? Of course Black people of African descent receive the most intense forms of racism in western white-majority cultures at a MACRO level, it's undeniable.

We also live in a class system where poor and vulnerable people suffer but at this moment black men and women are literally being killed due to the colour of their skin.

When I said what about the fact that Irish Travelers have been openly racist against black people or that black men cannot wander the countryside asking for work in the way Irish Travelers can? crickets.

Are all Gypsies and Travellers protected against race discrimination?
The courts have said that Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers are protected against race discrimination because they’re ethnic groups under the Equality Act

There was controversy about this and still is within both communities.

Romany Gypsies are English and ethnically related to the Roma, distant cousins if you like, and other related European Gypsies.

Irish Travellers are Irish and not related to the above, but are closely related to each other and so are an Irish group within the Irish main group. If that makes sense

But some Romany and some Irish Travellers do not like the way they are classed together. Not because they dislike each other but because each see themselves as having their own distinct ethnicity, history and culture.

But to get back to the thread. I agree with the OP that in Western Europe the Romany (English) and even more so Irish Travellers can and do pass as "white". By that I mean if you met them you would not know that they are Romany or Traveller unless they told you. Irish Travellers and to most people just have ordinary Irish accents and are Irish. Some Romany can be dark, but then so can some ethnically English people. The Romany especially are very culturally small town or village English.

@PatricksRum you could have named your threads anything relating to BLM, but you named them “You're white you haven't experienced racism”

This is the one any only reason you have other people such as Irish Travellers disputing you

Most people in mumsnet supports you, you don’t need to antagonise other people who feel your pain already

The 2nd post at 17.47 on this thread was by the OP and one of the questions she asked was Can you explain to me, as an Irish person, which facial features you have that are exclusive to Irish people?

At 18.11, the OP commented, drawing attention to the 2nd post by saying she was interested in lemonsandlimes response to it.

At 19.17 Zebra said Travellers were recognised and protected under the Equality Act from racism.

At 19.27 the OP responded by giving detail on the Equality Act, some of which was queried by Zebra (but travellers were not specifically mentioned) at 19.41.

The OP responded at 19.46 to the query, mentioning Irish Travellers. At 19.49 she mentioned them again.

There was then some back and forth by various posters, including the OP, regarding Irish Travellers.

At 20.08 the OP asked Which facial features do Irish travellers possess that are exclusive to Irish travellers? She repeated the question at 20.15, in a roundabout way at 20.21, again at 20.34, again at 20.54,

There were posts in between the above where Travellers were referenced.

At 23.30 I posted and briefly referenced Irish Travellers and mentioned the OP asking how an Irish Traveller can be picked out.

At 23.57, in response to a direct comment to me by a poster (not the OP) telling me I wasn't getting it and that I could start a separate thread on Irish Travellers, based on my 23.30 post, I again referred to the OP questioning how a Traveller can be identified.

At 00.31 Wishinstarr posted about how Irish Travellers could, if they chose, to hide their origin by changing their clothes, culture, accent. The OP responded to this at 00.39.

At 00.39 the OP posted @Chulainn How can you identify a white traveller from a group of white faces?
At 00.47 I responded by saying I will not answer this question. I don't think it's appropriate.
At 00.53 the OP replied to me by saying Until you can I can't explain traveller's white privilege.

Earrings replied to the OPs question on identifying a white traveller at 00.55, which OP responded to at 1.02 by quoting Earrings post and commenting as she went through it. At 1.10 Earrings wrote about that reply: Why do you keep doing this? You asked a question, I answered it, as I and others, have done several times

At 1.14 Earrings gave OP a link and more information, to help her understand.

The posts on Irish Travellers continued from then on between myself, Earrings, OP and possibly more (I'm tired so not focusing too well anymore). However, the OP asked a few more times about specific features Travellers have.

The reason for the long list is to point out that this hasn't just been myself, Earrings and Zebra going on about Travellers for no reason. The OP was engaged throughout the discussion. She talked about it at 1.35, even asking for a link on the subject. At 1.52 the OP quoted from an internet page about Irish Travellers. She ended that post with For example, a line up of Irish people wearing the same clothes and same hair, how could I know which one is a traveller?

Qwery questioned her on why she needed to know. At 2.01 I said it was something she needed to accept if she couldn't understand what she had read or been told. At 2.03 the OP said I can explain how a black person can be identified in a line up without being offensive. I can do the same for Asians. Why can't anyone explain it for travellers?

It then continued with both myself and Earrings asking her to stop and some tooing and froing on the matter by all parties. However, other posts on BLM were going up and OP was responding to them.

At 2.28 the OP posted a link on Travellers, saying she can't tell them apart. There was more discussion.

At 3.04 Wishingstarr posted To keep insisting on and pressing a comparison with Irish Travelers Earrings is classic whataboutery. I feel this is unfair as the OP was fully engaged in discussing Irish Travellers and actively posted about it, including a link. In that post, valid comments were made about racism. The OP pulled me up on ignoring Wishingstarr's comments on the struggles of being black. That was a valid criticism and I apologise @Wishingstarr. I should have addressed that. I will do so on a separate post.

It all kind of blew up but I think the catalyst was me posting that I felt the OP had been discriminatory towards Irish Travellers. That's when she started the 'woe is me' bit. I've tried my hardest to keep the focus on BLM but they won't stop.Then when I listen I'm wrong... That post at 3.30 completely ignored the fact that she had been active in the discussion, even going so far as to Google and find a link.

I know the focus of the thread is BLM but I'm not going to stand by and let someone ask for any groups features to be pulled apart so they can understand their racial issues. I'm also not going to stand by and be blamed for derailing a thread when the OP posted the 1st comment on the thread that led to the derailment, and actively contributed throughout the thread until the criticism got too much.

Her words were considered offensive, distressing, disturbing, discriminatory and bigoted. Nobody has commented on that.

I don't understand why it is offensive that the OP ask how can Irish travelers be physically identified, as you seem to be claiming they can be?

People of African descent as we all know can be identified by skin colour, facial features and hair texture. They may not have inherited all these highly identifiable features depending on the individual, but there are a range of physical features particularly skin colour which make a person physically stand out as clearly of African ancestry.

Irish Travelers are generally identified by cultural features such as speech patterns, clothes, body movements and various cultural aspects that are unique to Irish Travelers. I am sure that those who are more familiar with Traveler communities can identify them much easier than others.

However, a person of African descent could be orphaned and know nothing about their family background but their physical features would identify that in their lineage were ancestors from somewhere in Africa, their unique characteristics could not be denied.

There is absolutely nothing wrong that I can see in stating the obvious.

In the USA during slavery the "one drop rule" applied. If an individual had any African ancestors, no matter how distant, that person could be legally enslaved. And that ancestry was usually written on their body in the form of colour/hair texture/facial features or some combination thereof.

Irish Travellers can be identified by facial features, as well as by clothes, culture, accent. It's those features myself and Earrings weren't comfortable detailing, as neither of us are from the travelling community. What I found offensive was the number of times the OP asked, ignoring the reasons why it wasn't appropriate. If she had asked once, maybe twice, fine. The OP asked at least 6 times, despite being asked to stop, and reasons why she was being asked to stop. She was, imo, tone deaf to the inappropriateness of her repeated behaviour. However, only myself and Earrings got called out for talking about Irish Travellers. The OPs active involvement was ignored, especially by herself.

Why is it inappropriate that she ask more than once, especially if everyone ignored or refused to answer her question? Racism is based primarily on outward appearance. BLM is a movement protesting not even civil rights but the HUMAN RIGHTS denied to black people who are violently attacked and killed due to their physical appearance.

When we visited New York a few years ago we were walking around Broadway when the cinema let out, and all of a sudden DH and I were surrounded by mostly young black people. I remember being petrified that I was going to have my bag snatched.

I'm embarrassed and ashamed to admit that.

I've read all of these threads and I must admit I'd never thought of white privilege being a thing. DH thinks it's more a class / money thing but the way I see it if you're poor and white you still have more privilege than someone who is poor and black.

Very thought provoking threads op.

Earrings provided her with a link to look at. We explained why we didn't want to answer. The OP kept insisting that Irish Travellers in Ireland have white privilege. Another poster understood our point and said that they didn't think they had based on what I said. The OP said because not everyone, including herself, could identify them by features they had white privilege. The OP cannot, through her own ignorance, unilaterally decide an ethnic group has white privilege, when they clearly don't.

Is posters repeatedly ask the OP the same question they are accused of haranguing her. This happened on the previous thread. In some instances the OP has refused to answer questions. Why is that ok for her but not for others? It works both ways.

In this matter, the OP kept on and on asking the same question over and over. She ignored appeals to stop. She just kept going. She even asked Earrings to PM her if she didn't want to say openly. It is inappropriate behaviour.

As you say, racism is based primarily on outward behaviour. Irish Travellers are identifiable by outward appearance. They suffer from racism. I understand what BLM is and have said previously on the thread, or the previous one, I support it. I only seem to talk about Irish Travellers because I'm responding to questions or statements about them.