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You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

590 replies

PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 17:43

Continued.

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EarringsandLipstick · 08/06/2020 01:43

I 100% have not intended to use as a slur and apologise if it looks as though I have.

That's fair enough OP. I accept that you didn't know this & as it's often used interchangeably in the UK, it's understandable. You don't need to apologise to me on this.

I don't think you were being ignorant at all, on this point, fwiw.

(I keep saying I'm going, I really should!)

WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 08/06/2020 01:44

I do think this point is over done but at the risk of contributing to the derail. I am sure that some people can tell an Irish traveller by their looks.
Evidence has been posted I do not seek to deny it but I confess I cannot myself.

We have some traveller sites around where I live and we usually get a few caravans move onto the hospital site every year. (Yes they do get moved on and no they are not exactly welcomed). Some of my patients are from the traveller community. With that basic level of familiarity I could not identify who was a traveller by sight. They do look white to me.

It is at the least true to say that it is much easier and requires no special familiarity to identify a black person.

So the point stands that travellers experience white privilege. They are obviously not privileged by any means in comparison to the rest of society but if there were any black travellers they would be worse off still.

qweryuiop · 08/06/2020 01:47

Patrick's, I think I've said it before, but you don't have to have different coloured skin to face racial discrimination. Race is not an easily defined thing, as you acknowledged yourself when pps were stupidly expecting you to define what "black" means.

Chulainn · 08/06/2020 01:51

Woke, Irish Travellers don't have white privilege in Ireland as they are identifiable by features alone, as Earrings has said. They possibly have white privilege in the UK but even then, I suspect some people can identify them from features alone, negating the white privilege.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 01:52

“Ethnic identities which distinguish members of one group from the rest of society are generally based on differences in skin color, language, religion, national origin, or a combination of these factors. Occasionally, however distinct ethnic groups emerge from within culturally homogenous populations. Numerous itinerant populations in Western Europe such as the Swedish Tattare, Norwegian Tatere, Finnish Zigenare, Dutch Reiziger, and Scottish Travellers represent ethnic groups which are both indigenous to their country of residence and identical to its people in terms of colour, language and religion.” (1976:225)

Secondly, Tinkers share cultural features and behavior patterns which distinguish them from settled Irish. As a group, they possess a unique material culture including colorful carts and wagons, tents, and piebald ponies; and they practice marginal trades and services which are not generally pursued by other Irish...

@EarringsandLipstick i fix comd across these in your link.

“What do the English or Welsh Gypsies and Irish or Scottish Travellers have in common? They share a resistance to wage labour, a multiplicity of self-employed occupations, often a need for geographical flexibility and an ideological preference for trailers or caravans...

In her discussion Ní Shuinéar covers much of the ground covered earlier by the Gmelchs and Okely. Her main arguments can be summarised as follows:
– biological self perpetuation: Travellers typically marry within the group and group membership is determined by descent;
– shared fundamental cultural values and its concomitant cultural difference: shared Traveller values include self-employment, occupational flexibility priority of social obligations based on kinship, and nomadism. Travellers also have distinctive pollution beliefs;
– overt unity of cultural form and the social separation implied: there are distinctive Traveller versions of a wide range of observable phenomena including accommodation, dress and grooming, speech patterns, religious and other group rituals and artistic expression;
– own field of communication and interaction and the implication language barrier: interaction and communication between Travellers and settled people are broadly limited to business or formal settings. Not only do Travellers have their own language – Gammon or Cant – they also have a distinctive – and shared – use of English.
5 In Ní Shuinéar’s presentation these latter characteristics are also cited from Barth. Note that she slightly misquotes him at this point. For the specific context in which these latter characteristics ar

I appreciate and understand these points and I am well aware that you can sometimes tell who a traveller is from their home, the community they live in, language, accent, dress speech patterns.

What I can't see is how they are distinctly different in facial appearance.

For example, a line up of Irish people wearing the same clothes and same hair, how could I know which one is a traveller?

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PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 01:53

Patrick's, I think I've said it before, but you don't have to have different coloured skin to face racial discrimination. Race is not an easily defined thing, as you acknowledged yourself when pps were stupidly expecting you to define what "black" means
Of course not. I've not said they can't. You can see I've personally said how I'm appalled by their treatment.

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thegcatsmother · 08/06/2020 01:54

PatricksRum
Specific programmes and projects aimed at black people only with a huge injection of cash. To do what specifically?
Racism, oppression, privilege taught in schools. Perhaps a weekly exercise. The video you linked to of the American lady who did a workshop - I used to do that (but only in an hour) with my students 15 years ago. we worked through the Show Racism the Red Card modules as well. This has been on the curriculum for a very long time.
A zero tolerance approach to racism Yes, but that is, or should be, embedded in schools already, so what is going wrong? If I was teaching this 15 years ago to secondary school students who would now be coming up to their 30s, if not already in them; why is this not percolating through?

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 01:54

Woke, Irish Travellers don't have white privilege in Ireland as they are identifiable by features alone
Which features? I've heard her mention marriage but that isn't a feature but a behaviour.

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PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 01:55

I did come across *

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WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 08/06/2020 01:55

Changes to police training: ban the use of choke holds and anything covering the mouth (big factor in a number of deaths), ban the use of batons on mentally il people (I bet you didn't think they hit mentally ill people in a hospital with batons but it happened to Kingsley Burrell and Seni Lewis amongst others) education programme for police on presentations of mental illness

Changes to mental health training: reduce to an absolute minimum the involvement of police on inpatient mental health wards. If police do attend medical/ nursing staff to be empowered to challenge excessive use of force.

Changes to assumptions: these are unconscious racist assumptions that the majority of people hold at some level about black men especially. When black men act oddly due to mental illness it is interpreted as threat and goes down a criminal justice route vs when white people act similarly it goes down a health route. What other explanation is there for this striking disparity?.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 01:59

Specific programmes and projects aimed at black people only with a huge injection of cash. To do what specifically?
Literally everything. I said this to someone privately about how I felt more comfortable to discuss my oppression in a group aimed at black people.
For example, I attended a group for black mothers.
As a child an activity for black children aimed at provoking discussion.

Racism, oppression, privilege taught in schools. Perhaps a weekly exercise. The video you linked to of the American lady who did a workshop - I used to do that (but only in an hour) with my students 15 years ago. we worked through the Show Racism the Red Card modules as well. This has been on the curriculum for a very long time.
That's great.
I have younger siblings and they haven't had anything like this. Only black slavery month. If its on the curriculum is it mandatory?

A zero tolerance approach to racism Yes, but that is, or should be, embedded in schools already, so what is going wrong? If I was teaching this 15 years ago to secondary school students who would now be coming up to their 30s, if not already in them; why is this not percolating through?
Personally, I experienced racism in school.
One response i understand he was racist but can you stop telling us about it - from a teacher
They received no ramifications, at most a little telling off so this obviously isn't universal

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qweryuiop · 08/06/2020 01:59

Seriously Patrick's? Why do you need to pick an ethnic minority out of a line up? I can't tell a black African from a black African American until they speak, but I know their experiences of racism are going to be very different. If you don't want to talk about white minorities, you don't have to. You can ignore earrings and others, including me. But you are posting things that I find bigoted.

EarringsandLipstick · 08/06/2020 02:00

For example, a line up of Irish people wearing the same clothes and same hair, how could I know which one is a traveller?

You (Patricks) might not be able to.

Many others especially in Ireland would

For the love of all that's holy, will just accept it? Please?

You don't understand the situation. You've had it explained.

You don't need any further breakdown.

It. Is. Possible.

It. Happens.

Travellers. Experience. This. A. Lot.

Side note: I am not an Irish Traveller. If anyone who is comes on this thread (I know there was a poster on the other thread), feel free to contradict anything I've said. I hope I've spoken about my own experience and not talked overly on behalf of you).

(I know. I'm meant to be gone. I'm like this IRL too. I say goodbye x 10 before I really leave. Very annoying habit.)

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 02:01

Seriously Patrick's? Why do you need to pick an ethnic minority out of a line up?
It's hipotheticsl.

I can't tell a black African from a black African American until they speak,
They both are black though. You can pick a black person out from a line up of white people.

but I know their experiences of racism are going to be very different. If you don't want to talk about white minorities, you don't have to. You can ignore earrings and others, including me. But you are posting things that I find bigoted.
I am talking about it though.
I've tried not to derail but it keeps coming up so I've accepted it and I'm discussing it.

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Chulainn · 08/06/2020 02:01

Patricks, you need to accept that you can re. identifying Irish Travellers. It might not be the answer you are looking for but both Earrings and myself have informed you it can and is done. I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to go through individual features or an overall look to explain the differences. It might be considered offensive to some.

The research you quoted from is dated. The word "tinkers" is not used any longer. I'm sure there is more up to date research on Google, if you're interested.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 02:03

Many others especially in Ireland would
But how?
I can explain how a black person can be identified in a line up without being offensive. I can do the same for Asians.
Why can't anyone explain it for travellers?

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EarringsandLipstick · 08/06/2020 02:03

'Her' has told you ...

I've heard her mention marriage but that isn't a feature but a behaviour.

Just how many times?

Because Travellers marry largely in their own community. That's what gives them, generally, a homogeneity of features ie they are recognisable by how they look

It's not a behaviour related to marriage. It's that their marriages stay within their community so people look very similar & identifiable (broadly)

qweryuiop · 08/06/2020 02:03

@PatricksRum

Patrick's, I think I've said it before, but you don't have to have different coloured skin to face racial discrimination. Race is not an easily defined thing, as you acknowledged yourself when pps were stupidly expecting you to define what "black" means Of course not. I've not said they can't. You can see I've personally said how I'm appalled by their treatment.
You've also repeatedly asked for how to tell an Irish traveller by their looks. Which is irrelevant unless you think looks are they only way to distinguish a group in order to oppress them.

I'm obviously misunderstanding you, as every response you make to me is completely reasonable. But the other things you're posting just don't match this.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 02:04

Patricks, you need to accept that you can re. identifying Irish Travellers. It might not be the answer you are looking for but both Earrings and myself have informed you it can and is done. I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to go through individual features or an overall look to explain the differences. It might be considered offensive to some.
If you don't find it appropriate then respectively, I remain the view that they have a privilege that black people don't - light, white skin.
*
The research you quoted from is dated. The word "tinkers" is not used any longer. I'm sure there is more up to date research on Google, if you're interested.*
Earrings provided that to me so I went through it.

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PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 02:06

Because Travellers marry largely in their own community. That's what gives them, generally, a homogeneity of features ie they are recognisable by how they look
I understand what you mean now.
I still sadly don't understand which features they are as everyone is refusing to state.
That's fine of you don't want to. I will uphold my opinion that white travellers have white privilege because they are white.

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Chulainn · 08/06/2020 02:06

Patricks, I really hope you move on from this discussion point now. I find it distressing and disturbing. Qwery has said she finds it bigoted. I can't speak for Earrings but it's possible she is not comfortable with it either.

EarringsandLipstick · 08/06/2020 02:06

Patricks

Why do you keep asking for a list of features of Travellers? It's highly offensive.

Chulainn and I have both told you this. And yet you persist.

Please. Please stop.

The section of the report you quoted from is a review of literature spanning decades, which is why outdated terminology is used. Again we've both explained this to you.

Just. Stop.

PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 02:07

You've also repeatedly asked for how to tell an Irish traveller by their looks. Which is irrelevant unless you think looks are they only way to distinguish a group in order to oppress them.
I'm not saying it's the only way.
I'm saying it is a way. And because that way cannot be done to Travellers - distinguish by skin colour, they hold a privilege that black people don't - their skin tone.
The darker your skin the worse the racism is.
*
I'm obviously misunderstanding you, as every response you make to me is completely reasonable. But the other things you're posting just don't match this.*

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PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 02:08

Patricks, I really hope you move on from this discussion point now. I find it distressing and disturbing. Qwery has said she finds it bigoted. I can't speak for Earrings but it's possible she is not comfortable with it either.

I uphold my original view and I'm happy to move on.

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PatricksRum · 08/06/2020 02:09

*Why do you keep asking for a list of features of Travellers? It's highly offensive.

Chulainn and I have both told you this. And yet you persist.

Please. Please stop.

The section of the report you quoted from is a review of literature spanning decades, which is why outdated terminology is used. Again we've both explained this to you.

Just. Stop.*
Okay I remain that they have white privilege.
You differ.
We'll agree to disagree.

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