You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

Thwgcatsmother

She definitely has said but perhaps it was not what you expected/ cared to hear

Her main demand is that we stop the killing of black people. That is in fact the main demand of the Black Lives Matter movement. When she says this people say it's hyperbole, it's making a fuss, exaggerating the issue, it's only relevant in the US
This really really isn't true:
Sheku Bayoh, Edson Da Costa, Olaseni Lewis, Sean Rigg, Kingsley Burrell, Darren Cumberbatch, Dalian Atkinson, Leon Briggs
In the UK black people die in police custody twice as often as other ethnicities.
No-one ever gets prosecuted for these deaths they are always ruled as tragic accidents and nothing changes.

We urgently need changes to police and mental health training.
We need to stop assuming that black people are criminal and dangerous
We should have a proper public enquiry into the factors collectively underlying all these deaths

OP has also asked us all to be aware of our privilege and to use it to challenge racism wherever we see it
She did so very movingly on posts just upthread

I don't think you have. What are the very specific metrics that you would want to see changed?
Specific programmes and projects aimed at black people only with a huge injection of cash.
Racism, oppression, privilege taught in schools. Perhaps a weekly exercise.
A zero tolerance approach to racism.
I saw today a statue was thrown of a slave master in the protests. The fact this was still there is crazy. All of these things need to be looked into.

Is it spending on education; state intervention at an early age; mentoring in school at KS4/KS5; blind CVs when applying for jobs; specific emphasis on certain professions, so STEM or legal? Would you like there to be affirmative action (or similar) for uni entry?
Blind CVs is another one.
Regarding uni entry I think this will stem from the bottom upwards (along with blind CVs and applications)

Here Patricks:

Physical distinctiveness in
the broadest sense is not synonymous with identity, but intra-marriage tends to keep the two pretty closely linked. Travellers are physically distinctive from the settled population. Ask any Traveller who, scrubbed and combed and decked out in all new gear, has been refused entry to a pub disco without even getting a chance to open his mouth and you will find that physical distinctiveness not only exists but exists in very practical ways. Ask any bouncer or security guard and you’ll get the same answer. Genetic studies corroborate this popular perception by confirming differentiation between the Traveller and settled Irish populations (Crawford and Gmelch, 1974; Crawford, 1975).” (Ní Shuinéar 1994:55; emphasis in original)

From www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/traveller_ethnicity.pdf

I explained this. Because Travelllers tend to marry within their community it tends to give them a more distinctive look.
I'm trying to learn.
When marrying within your own community what, in particular, singles you out?

@EarringsandLipstick
Thanks for your post but it still isn't stating what is distinctive, just that they are distinctive.
I'm interested to know what features, specifically, do they possess which is unique to Travellers
I had a lot of gypsy friends in primary school and I genuinely didn't know they were gypsies until year 6 when a family friend stated she was working with them to try to help them maintain in education (she's a social worker)

I understand that your fight here @PatricksRum is black and white, literally. I agree that the basic argument that a black person with the same starting point as a white person will statistically have worse outcomes in life.

I don't actually think that is the sole power dynamic in the UK (I know less about other countries but know that its also not accurate for New Zealand or the USA). I think there is far, far more nuance in our society than that.

Said so well on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3931808-To-feel-emotional-at-the-slave-trader-statue?pg=24

00:46CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate

Myothercarisalsoshit

I was writing a long reply but you said it so much more succintly and better than I.

Someone once said that being black is like being the middle child in a family. Not the baby. Not the older who can't be ignored. Overlooked.

Every other culture is allowed to acknowledge their pain, and more importantly define what they perceive as unacceptable symbols of it

Except African Americans, or children of the diaspora. For some unknowable reason that I cannot fathom, slavery is the thing that people truly don't think deserves an equal hearing. One gets the 'so loooooooong ago', but 'black people sold slaves', 'but there were good results of slavery' 'but what good does it do to rehash this etc etc' things they would not say to any other repressed group.

So they have to rise above each time and think of others and "pray away" their pain - which traditionally they have always done from generation to generation. It is why traditionally black people on the whole are largely big on God.

Just accept it doesn't mean the same to you but it means a lot to some of us.

You've got to be joking OP

Can I ask why you feel the need to continuously be rude and belittling to me? I'm showing you nothing but respect. I ask you to do the same please.

You've been so disrespectful to me. I have answered your question. Over and over. And you still say, no, don't agree 🤷🏻‍♀️

What else to do?

I've noticed how you work. You've done this to other posters.

You ask questions, challenge what they say. Totally fine.

They answer. Provide details. Links. Explanations.

You deny their explanation, nit pick, twist it (like you did to my post about Traveller marriages).

Poster gets frustrated, tries again.

You ignore their points and attack them, put them down, accuse them of derailing even tho they are just answering your question.

Poster gets more frustrated and perhaps heated

You accuse them of being rude to you etc. If not dealing with BLM.

Poster gives up, leaves.

Toodle pip you say, happy out.

It's really really hard to feel you're not just goady.

In terms of manners, you called me a liar several threads ago. I posted your comments repeatedly t lo prove I wasn't, and you just changed it to say that you were accusing me of lying about something else.

Well, happy days for you, as I'm leaving this thread as with the last, and you'll be able to enjoy an echo chamber type environment soon.

I hadn't seen your post before I posted about Irish Travellers! You must be 😳😳😳 at me

Not at all! I hate “shouting” at people on the internet and I’m sorry you got the brunt of my stress! I think it never has to be an either/or situation and feeling strongly about one inequality often means you find it easier to feel strongly about others and that’s the kind of person we need in the world.

I think in the back and forth with you and op, I probably felt like you were “instigating” it because I more naturally side with the op in terms of blm being closer to my heart. However, you were fighting for what was close to your heart and it was my bias that made me feel like we were on opposite sides.

I hope that makes sense, it’s late and I’m tired!

Argh that post was to Earrings
I am definitely too tired!

Why OP?

I'm interested to know what features, specifically, do they possess which is unique to Travellers

Why do you need to know this? Is it not enough that you have had the explanation that yes, you can tell an Irish Traveller, in some situations (eg Ireland) by how they look?

You could just acknowledge you were wrong? 🤔

It's not impossible to answer the question but it could be offensive, especially as I'm not a Traveller, talking about features / looks that they might have.

It's not necessary tho. It's just more of you being goady.

That's totally fair @AvranaKernsBestSpider and thanks for your post. It makes sense!

Night!

Thanks for sharing @Choconuttolata

@thegcatsmother

I have answered this, especially in this thread

I don't think you have. What are the very specific metrics that you would want to see changed? Is it spending on education; state intervention at an early age; mentoring in school at KS4/KS5; blind CVs when applying for jobs; specific emphasis on certain professions, so STEM or legal? Would you like there to be affirmative action (or similar) for uni entry?

I can answer this one in part! Racism awareness in schools. Racism awareness training for teachers so they notice racism and act on it swiftly. Training for teachers, head and governors on how to create an environment where racism is not tolerated. Create a level playing field in schools where children can achieve their best and feel safe, never belittled or told what they can’t achieve.

I put some basic links for people to send into their children’s/local schools on a previous thread. I was honestly shocked at how many schools don’t have any suitable policies and training in place.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52956167

You've been so disrespectful to me. I have answered your question. Over and over. And you still say, no, don't agree 🤷🏻‍♀️
You haven't told me the district features. Only that they exist.*

What else to do?

I've noticed how you work. You've done this to other posters.

You ask questions, challenge what they say. Totally fine.

They answer. Provide details. Links. Explanations.

You deny their explanation, nit pick, twist it (like you did to my post about Traveller marriages).*
Interestingly, that's what zebra did.
How did I twist it? I literally agreed with you*

Poster gets frustrated, tries again.

You ignore their points and attack them, put them down, accuse them of derailing even tho they are just answering your question.*
I'm not attacking you right now that's why I'm asking why you are so insistent on doing so *

Poster gets more frustrated and perhaps heated

You accuse them of being rude to you etc. If not dealing with BLM.

Poster gives up, leaves.

Toodle pip you say, happy out.

It's really really hard to feel you're not just goady.

In terms of manners, you called me a liar several threads ago. I posted your comments repeatedly t lo prove I wasn't, and you just changed it to say that you were accusing me of lying about something else.

Well, happy days for you, as I'm leaving this thread as with the last, and you'll be able to enjoy an echo chamber type environment soon.*
Okay bye

I had a lot of gypsy friends in primary school and I genuinely didn't know they were gypsies until year 6

FYI OP, gypsies and Irish Travellers are not the same ethnic group. Perhaps google it, as you're so fond of saying?

In Ireland, it would be really offensive to use the term 'gypsies' to refer to Travellers.

Broadly, gypsies have their origins in Romany communities.

I've noticed the term has been conflated in the UK eg in programmes like My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, indeed even within the Traveller community in the UK

But ethnically, they are different.

Thanks again for all the interesting & challenging posts, and for posters who gave me another perspective. I appreciated it & it was valid.

Off I go from the thread, happily for OP I guess 😊

Why do you need to know this? Is it not enough that you have had the explanation that yes, you can tell an Irish Traveller, in some situations (eg Ireland) by how they look?
You haven't explained how you can tell they are a traveller on appearance, particularly facial features alone.
The reason I'm asking? Because you keep repeatedly bringing up that they face similar or the same racial discrimination as black people. Not just you. Others too.
*
You could just acknowledge you were wrong? 🤔*
If I am I will hold my hands up. I can't do that till I know I'm wrong.*

It's not impossible to answer the question but it could be offensive, especially as I'm not a Traveller, talking about features / looks that they might have.*
Would you feel more comfortable to pm me in response to the question?*

It's not necessary tho. It's just more of you being goady.*
How am I being goady?

It's not impossible to answer the question but it could be offensive, especially as I'm not a Traveller, talking about features / looks that they might have.
Or even a link that can explain it without you personally stating it.

*I had a lot of gypsy friends in primary school and I genuinely didn't know they were gypsies until year 6

FYI OP, gypsies and Irish Travellers are not the same ethnic group. Perhaps google it, as you're so fond of saying?*
I know that. I've noted that in thread 3.
*
In Ireland, it would be really offensive to use the term 'gypsies' to refer to Travellers.*
Really? Apologies if my term was offensive to anyone reading.
I just had a Google and found this Gill Brown, of the London Gypsy and Traveller Unit, told the Mail: "Romany Gypsies are an ethnic group so it depends on the way you are using it. If you use it in the correct context it is not racist. However, it can still be used as a slur and that is racist.
I 100% have not intended to use as a slur and apologise if it looks as though I have. It's ignorant.
*
Broadly, gypsies have their origins in Romany communities.

I've noticed the term has been conflated in the UK eg in programmes like My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, indeed even within the Traveller community in the UK

But ethnically, they are different.*
I understand.

Bold fail again

wokeup She definitely has said but perhaps it was not what you expected/ cared to hear That's a bit of an assumption isn't it? There has been a lot of heat on these threads, and I've been following all four of them; but not a lot about the really concrete incremental steps that can be taken and legislated on to enshrine change. I think it needs to be very specific rather than general, as otherwise it's a gesture in the right direction as opposed to real change.

We urgently need changes to police and mental health training. Specifically?
We need to stop assuming that black people are criminal and dangerous That's an assumption on your part that everybody thinks that.
We should have a proper public enquiry into the factors collectively underlying all these deaths Agreed.