You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

That's very unfair on Coach. She did make a mistake. She acknowledged that iirc?
She absolutely didn't. She blamed me. Not one apology.
Compared to @qweryuiop acknowledgement.
The way have engaged with both of them is so different and that's why.

I disagree with the title of the thread.

I’m sure people do agree that some groups of white people do experience racism: traveller, Eastern European, Jewish, Irish people.

Different groups will experience different types of racism. I can see that black peoples experience more police discrimination among many other things. I can see why they would want to campaign about these things specifically.

I’m from an ethnic group that gets grouped with many others that are distinct (and people do get offended due to historic injustices between groups). I think perhaps it is good to be more specific about the injustices and people affected by them.

I did not see Hooves apologise for the deleted Holocaust denier accusation or anyone suggesting that she should.
In fact she was proud.

Earrings

We actually agree on the BAME issue (I mean, my family is ME so I’d be in trouble if I didn’t! ) and I can see that the traveller issue is really close to your heart, understandably. You’re right that there’s not as much awareness as there should be in the UK (although my neighboring county council have fantastic ethnic minority and traveller attainment program - I think all counties need one! If people want to check and nag their council for one, they’re usually referred to as “EMTA teams” or similar.)

And, if you’d written a thread on travellers rights and this thread’s op came on and started saying “but black lives! But you don’t know xyz about other ethnic groups!” I’d have been equally frustrated on your behalf.

I don’t want to silence you - I want I hear your posts about travellers as that’s something I don’t know enough about, but I don’t want to hear them in the context of a fight with the op. People hear you whether or not the op does or not. She’s got things wrong, you’ve corrected her NOW CHILDREN STOP FIGHTING!! Peace and love etc.

6. I, too, am interested in the wider debate on BAME issues. OP spends very little time on that
Because the thread isn't about BAME lives.*

Start a thread about any other ethnic group and I'll happily join/ debate.

When I said this, I am referring to the 'Black' part of BAME as well - you've said so little on this, bar maybe 4 or 5 generalised posts. If anyone asks you to elaborate you respond, that it's not your place to tell us what's needed / what the issues are etc.*
Have you really not even read this thread? I've spoken deeply about some of the experiences I've faced and how we can challenge them.

What hasn't been concrete to me over all these particular threads, is the very specific things/metrics that you want to see changed. It's all well and good saying that it is not up to the Black community to point these out, but until and unless it is made crystal clear what needs to change and how that can happen, then any change may be the wrong kind, and it may be done to you, rather than by and with you, (if that makes sense).

[quote PatricksRum]@Chulainn
How can you identify a white traveller from a group of white faces?[/quote]
I will not answer this question. I don't think it's appropriate.

So white people can't experience racism specifically because of their skin colour? That's specific to black people of African origin?
No its specific to, and I hate this term, people of colour
*
But all other races /ethnicities experience racial prejudice?* No.

I understand when you say a white Irish traveller could hide their ethnicity (I don't think they should have to) but Asian people can't hide their race, do they experience racism or racial prejudice?
Of course no one should have to.
They experience racism as they can't hide their skin colour.

While you're right on the specific issue of visibility of ethnic status (I'm not sure I'm using the right words here, sorry), it's utterly heartbreaking that you're saying "it's OK because they can pretend not to be in a minority by changing their way of life, dress and accent."
Respectively, she isn't saying it's OK.
She specifically says they are discriminated against.
To explain white privilege this is a great example that is repeatedly brought up.

*I disagree with the title of the thread.
*That's fine.

*I’m sure people do agree that some groups of white people do experience racism: traveller, Eastern European, Jewish, Irish people.
*Jewish = Anti semitism.
Traveller, Eastern Europeans don't exclusively possess and identifiable feature such as skin colour.

*Different groups will experience different types of racism. I can see that black peoples experience more police discrimination among many other things. I can see why they would want to campaign about these things specifically.
*Sure.

I’m from an ethnic group that gets grouped with many others that are distinct (and people do get offended due to historic injustices between groups). I think perhaps it is good to be more specific about the injustices and people affected by them.
Sorry to hear that.

What hasn't been concrete to me over all these particular threads, is the very specific things/metrics that you want to see changed. It's all well and good saying that it is not up to the Black community to point these out, but until and unless it is made crystal clear what needs to change and how that can happen, then any change may be the wrong kind, and it may be done to you, rather than by and with you, (if that makes sense).
I have answered this, especially in this thread.

I will not answer this question. I don't think it's appropriate.
Until you can I can't explain traveller's white privilege.

I think the qs people need to ask about other white groups are

Is the oppression they face due to the colour of their skin?
Is the oppression at the hands of other white people?
Would a member of this group be even worse off if they were also black?

If the answer to that last one is yes than the group still has white privilege despite being discriminated against in their own right.

Like it or not there is a power hierarchy in this world and the blacker your skin the lower down you are.

Other factors intersect so a wealthy black person will have better life chances than a poor white person.
No one said all black people are worse off than all white people
But at any given level of wealth, health etc being black is still a disadvantage
Cf the black lawyer upthread arrested on his way to work for having a hammer in his bag to fix a picture to the wall
My friend who is a black surgeon stopped by police reversing his own car off his own drive as it was assumed he was stealing it.
Their wealth, good jobs and education didn't wholly protect them racial discrimination still came into play.

For people wanting to learn ...

Watch this video on Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome by Dr Joy DeGruy

"In other words, if it was safely in the past, it would be easy to have a discussion about slavery, but the fact is that we still live with its consequences: Deep structural inequality, poverty, discrimination, premature death for large numbers of people who live in our cities, highly radicalized mass incarceration. If you think of slavery as an injustice that produced lasting consequences across many generations, then you have a responsibility to commit to doing something about it.”.

Marcus Rediker

www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/.premium-from-freedom-to-slavery-1.5245587

www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/identities/2019/8/22/20812883/1619-slavery-project-anniversary

Bloody hell OP, you've posted this so many times (and yet, say anyone who mentions Irish Travellers is derailing)

How can you identify a white traveller from a group of white faces?

I've answered before. Not everyone can, that's true. I think I could. I'm Irish, used to seeing and living near, Irish Travellers.

They are ethnically distinct, so do look different. They also largely marry within their own community so that increases their ease of identification.

I confess to feeling quite furious that you keep challenging this - it's so prejudicial of you.

Perhaps you might not see the difference, as you know little about Irish travellers. I would.

Many Irish people (which is where most Irish Travellers live, in Ireland) can.

A traveller walks up to a shop; they don't have to say anything. They are refused admittance.

They go to book a wedding. They've a 'typically' Traveller name. (Something you mentioned in relation to black people, so you should get this). They won't be allowed book a wedding.

These things happen because in Ireland (UK too but I don't live there) people can recognise Travellers & in some cases, treat them badly just because of that

For example (and this will chime with you as you used the exact same example talking about racism against black people), if there's a crime, it's so typical, still today, for someone to say 'oh that was the tinkers' (the derogatory name used to refer to Travellers, tho originally it wasn't at all - they were tinkers as they mended pots & pans etc, 'tinkered' and some Travellers still use it. But it's not broadly considered acceptable)

On my neighbourhood what's app group the other day, someone posted there was a dodgy looking Traveller (they used another term I won't write here) around the estate, and to keep an eye on property, check windows / doors. When I objected, I was shot down & told that these were helpful posts to safeguard the neighbourhood.

I don't imagine you know much about this. That's fine. But God, can you just stop with the 'how do Travellers look different to other white-skinned people'

For once on these threads, can you accept information given to you?

*Is the oppression they face due to the colour of their skin?
Is the oppression at the hands of other white people?
Would a member of this group be even worse off if they were also black?

If the answer to that last one is yes than the group still has white privilege despite being discriminated against in their own right.

Like it or not there is a power hierarchy in this world and the blacker your skin the lower down you are.*
This is a great exercise.
I've posted before to say that I, too, am privileged in comparison to my darker counterparts.

@Choconuttolata
Thanks for your post. Have saved that to watch later.

@PatricksRum

While you're right on the specific issue of visibility of ethnic status (I'm not sure I'm using the right words here, sorry), it's utterly heartbreaking that you're saying "it's OK because they can pretend not to be in a minority by changing their way of life, dress and accent." Respectively, she isn't saying it's OK. She specifically says they are discriminated against. To explain white privilege this is a great example that is repeatedly brought up.

I have really, really tried to understand how minimising the plight of a severely oppressed minority by claiming that they can pass as a member of a more powerful group if they just want to furthers the cause of black lives matter.

I don't understand. I cannot stick by your repeated assertion just because you have said many other things that I have been challenged by and learnt from. I'm sorry that have experienced such hostile attitudes along this thread and others, and I wanted to stick around to support you. But I won't support minimising racism of any kind.

Black lives matter.

I've answered before. Not everyone can, that's true. I think I could. I'm Irish, used to seeing and living near, Irish Travellers.
Thanks for answering.
*
They are ethnically distinct, so do look different. They also largely marry within their own community so that increases their ease of identification.*
Can you explain in what way a white traveller looks different?
Marrying within your own community isn't obvious from your face alone.*

I confess to feeling quite furious that you keep challenging this - it's so prejudicial of you.

Perhaps you might not see the difference, as you know little about Irish travellers. I would.*
That's why I'm asking.*

Many Irish people (which is where most Irish Travellers live, in Ireland) can.

A traveller walks up to a shop; they don't have to say anything. They are refused admittance. *
That's awful. I've seen a few documentaries about this. Admittedly, a lot were about weddings but the amount of times they were refused once they found out they were gypsies was astounding.
*
They go to book a wedding. They've a 'typically' Traveller name. (Something you mentioned in relation to black people, so you should get this). They won't be allowed book a wedding.

These things happen because in Ireland (UK too but I don't live there) people can recognise Travellers & in some cases, treat them badly just because of that *
I appreciate that. I'm just asking who they can recognise a traveller by face alone?
*
For example (and this will chime with you as you used the exact same example talking about racism against black people), if there's a crime, it's so typical, still today, for someone to say 'oh that was the tinkers' (the derogatory name used to refer to Travellers, tho originally it wasn't at all - they were tinkers as they mended pots & pans etc, 'tinkered' and some Travellers still use it. But it's not broadly considered acceptable)*
Yeah I can imagine that. I've seen that on the documentaries when it comes to rubbish left etc.*

On my neighbourhood what's app group the other day, someone posted there was a dodgy looking Traveller (they used another term I won't write here) around the estate, and to keep an eye on property, check windows / doors. When I objected, I was shot down & told that these were helpful posts to safeguard the neighbourhood. *
Gosh. The way people respond to challenges of abuse is crazy.
*
I don't imagine you know much about this. That's fine. But God, can you just stop with the 'how do Travellers look different to other white-skinned people'*
I'm asking because it hasn't been answered.
*
For once on these threads, can you accept information given to you?*
Can I ask why you feel the need to continuously be rude and belittling to me? I'm showing you nothing but respect. I ask you to do the same please.

Arvana

I hadn't seen your post before I posted about Irish Travellers! You must be 😳😳😳 at me!

But in fairness, I did so directly replying to the OP's question about recognising Irish Travellers. She seems obsessed with asking this questions, so tho I know the points you're making about talking about different groups / ethnicities in the context of BLM, OP does keep asking! (I'm not sure she really wants to know tho 🤔)

I feel somewhat guilty that you say you see it's an issue close to my heart. In truth, for so many years I was oblivious. Better now but ...

I think I'm writing about it here as I I know I have no authority or experience on discrimination faced by other marginalised groups.

I'm going to bow out now tho, so I take your point!!

I have really, really tried to understand how minimising the plight of a severely oppressed minority by claiming that they can pass as a member of a more powerful group if they just want to furthers the cause of black lives matter.
It's the white privilege I'm trying to explain. I've explained how acknowledging privilege is helpful to the movement.
*
I don't understand. I cannot stick by your repeated assertion just because you have said many other things that I have been challenged by and learnt from. I'm sorry that have experienced such hostile attitudes along this thread and others, and I wanted to stick around to support you. But I won't support minimising racism of any kind.*
That's fine.
I'm not trying to minimise it. It's awful. Abhorrent.
What I'm trying to explain is that they also have a privilege due to their white skin. I have a privilege of lighter skin to.
*
Black lives matter.*

@PatricksRum

I will not answer this question. I don't think it's appropriate. Until you can I can't explain traveller's white privilege.

I didn't ask you too.

OP does keep asking! (I'm not sure she really wants to know tho 🤔)
Why are you continuously rude and making accusations about me?
Why are you unable to discuss without attacking me in every post. Even when the post isn't towards me. I've noticed this about you on so many. of these threads.

I have answered this, especially in this thread

I don't think you have. What are the very specific metrics that you would want to see changed? Is it spending on education; state intervention at an early age; mentoring in school at KS4/KS5; blind CVs when applying for jobs; specific emphasis on certain professions, so STEM or legal? Would you like there to be affirmative action (or similar) for uni entry?

Bloody bold fails.
MNHQ please release quotation on ios