To wonder why schools are saying they’re not allowed to do live lessons

[Plinkplonkplank]

Because they’ve just started doing them at my ds’s state secondary. We had to fill in an online permission form. So it is possible after all.

The black and white thinking here is what's really getting me - a full day's live lessons OR no engagement at all. Neither one is productive.

A full timetable of online lessons is exhausting and unnecessary. There are endless threads upon threads about how children's mental health is declining, how schools need to be reopened for MH reasons, how play parks and zoos need to be prioritised for the good of families. In this time of stress, anxiety, financial insecurity honestly do we believe as a society that piling on more expectations and pressure with required live lessons, as much (or more, I've seen the work set to the kids I work with, it's more than they would cover in a week of teaching) time spent working at home as they would physically be present in school is helping with the issue of adolescent mental health? Every single year I deal with breakdowns, tears, burnout of students who can't cope with the pressure under normal circumstances. These are far from normal circumstances and we should be more compassionate towards our young people now than ever before.

On the other side of the coin the insistence that the other option is zero engagement. This is obviously a complete deriliction of duty and completely unacceptable, any school refusing to provide any form of education (after contact from parents, request to teachers etc) should be held accountable - individual teachers would need to be discussed with the HoD or head teacher, entire school policy taken up with the LA or your MP.

I'm furious about the work set for some of the kids I work with, I actually cried when I saw some of it (I'm overemotional, granted) because I knew I wouldn't have allowed it to go out like that if I was still running the place. But I honestly can't express that because it will be jumped on as evidence of shitty practice and the nuance of the fact that those teachers will have had so many extra expectations placed on them that it means that they have no better option would be completely overlooked.

Neither end of the spectrum is ok, but arguments from each side assume that the other option is the one their opponent is pushing for.

Strawmen will be the death of us all, they have already been the death of half decent educational debate.

Dd (year 8) hasn't had any live lessons but seems to be getting on well with the work set. It still has introductions/teaching/powerpoints/videos etc i think, just not live. They've already done assessments in every subject and have got exams coming up in a few weeks, so the teachers will be able to see how they are doing. I'll be reinforcing to dd that there's no point cheating (which i imagine would be easier at home) as the teachers need to see where any gaps are.
On one of the powerpoints it said 'Failure to complete homework = detention". I did briefly puzzle over whether parents were going to be asked to supervise this, before the penny dropped that it had probably been left over from last year!

A full timetable of online lessons is exhausting and unnecessary

My dcs are enjoying it. I agree they are tiring, but they have plenty of breaks and shorter terms than state schools so it works well.

kittio and you just know that some parents would jump on that as an unacceptable oversight. I used a pp with my 6th form that referred to pages in a text book. The page refs were wrong because we use a new textbook now but we worked it out, it's fine. It has to be a mixture and it can't be one size fits all because between the teachers, the kids, the tech available to both are all variable. I teach in a private school that has been pretty behind with using tech generally. We've had to get good FAST to provide an acceptable level of input, not just because we care but because a) it's much easier to do it with small groups of mostly tech equipped kids and b) the parents do have that extra leverage of fees discount if they are unsatisfied.
Ultimately live lessons have their place but are not the same as face to face and are not always better. We've shortened our actual lessons to 30 mins, all in the morning, with the afternoon time (til 4.30) given over to extra curricular clubs and independent working time.

Tonyah - that's awesome! I hope you can tell from my post that I am deeply invested in education and I genuinely think that if something works for your kids then that's fantastic. Your kids are at a private school, yes? I do think it's much more likely that live lessons actually would work better for the cohorts who attended private schools - most have their own space to study, access to their own devices, internet access and parents who are invested in their education. That same thing is true of many state school students - for certain the ones I work with now as their parents are paying for my time but it isn't true for all of them.

My own school experience was in private education but my work experience has all been in state schools, generally in leafy and affluent areas. I grew up in a working class family in a not very well off area so I assumed I knew what things would be like.... and even so I had a very, very sharp shock understanding the lives some of my students led. It's not the case for all schools, not the case for all children but it is for enough.

When I say unnecessary I mean exactly that, not that they aren't beneficial for some/many students, not that they aren't useful, not that they shouldn't be delivered just that they aren't absolutely necessary. Likewise exhausting - some kids are in the place where they can deal with that, many are in the place where they actively benefit from that but many others aren't in a place where they have the energy.

In my ideal world there are opportunities for teachers to engage with all their students in some situations live lessons may provide that opportunity, in many others that isn't the best way forwards. Not all circumstances are the same. We can't equate one experience with another.

I would never expect the education currently being provided by our school to be the norm and I only too well understand the difficulties teaching and managing schools in disadvantaged areas.

I believe I am one of the very few parents on mumsnet with kids having a full time online education so I would have thought it was interesting at least to be able to add another type of experience to the mix.

Oh for sure, I think it's important to hear from different voices on all subjects - I dug out a years old MN username to post on a random lockdown education thread because I felt like I could contribute as I'm currently teaching remotely (and I do mean teaching new concepts) and so I have some idea about the advantages and also the barriers.

I think perhaps the issue here is that individual experiences get conflated to universal ones. It probably wasn't your intention in posting at all but so often we end up with "well if private schools can do it why can't state schools" and then explanations are called out as excuses and round and round we go again.

The black and white thinking here is what's really getting me - a full day's live lessons OR no engagement at all. Neither one is productive
I totally agree with you.

What's needed is a productive discussion that takes into account the range of schools, contexts, cohorts, staffing, and so on with some consideration that maybe people who teach in schools know a tiny bit about education.

I think my school has it right for our students with blending online chat (that can be accessed on a range of devices and doesn't require lots of data) and non-live online material that can also be provided in paper format. I've no doubt that there's be a couple of moaning mumsnetters who'd decide we are totally awful and abandoning our pupils for not providing a full timetable of live lessons every day, but the feedback we have had from parents has been excellent and we've scaled back some of our plans based on parental feedback.

What's interesting is that at our school it isn't just disadvantaged students who haven't got access to enough devices. Not every household has enough devices to facilitate live lessons.

I think perhaps the issue here is that individual experiences get conflated to universal ones

Yes but that's not my problem. I am not saying my experience is universal.

And with respect, there are plenty of teachers who have less experience of full time online education than I do at the moment.

I am categorically NOT saying it's the holy grail of education. It IS tiring and the short terms help. It may turn out to be a complete waste of time and money. But it's currently my reality.

@Nonotthatdr

There's a difference between a 1:1 video call to another adult, than potentially 30 students. I don't want my child turned into a meme. I attend staff meetings with my children on screen no problem.

Live lessons are actually becoming increasingly unpopular at our place and they aren't seeing the level of engagement people predict here. Many staff have had zero students out of 30 turn up. Short video clips are being much better received.

Many staff have had zero students out of 30 turn up. Short video clips are being much better received

why? my secondary dc have live lessons online and the clear expectation from school is that they attend. if they can't/won't parent are expected to write a justification.

Live lessons are actually becoming increasingly unpopular at our place and they aren't seeing the level of engagement people predict here complete opposite at our school.

Why would your child be turned into a meme?!?

Our live lessons are on Teams. Cameras off. Press a button to "put your hand up" Microphone on when teacher asks you a direct question.

We polled the parents of the pupils at our school. the vast majority didn't want live lessons as they didn't want to be tied down further to a time table that they may not be able to stick to.

This has been said so many times by so many teachers and ignored.

We now also have a hard core group of parents that want live lessons and have lobbied for this for some time. so now some of our core lessons are live.

But this has also been ignored by some on here.

We polled the parents of the pupils at our school. the vast majority didn't want live lessons as they didn't want to be tied down further to a time table that they may not be able to stick to.

Sorry random cut and paste and hovering over the post button!

We now also have a hard core group of parents that want live lessons and have lobbied for this for some time. so now some of our core lessons are live

It seems a lot of schools have suddenly started live lessons. I know our local state started this week in a couple of subjects.

You say suddenly, we say spent 3 weeks sorting out equipment, rooms, scripts and lessons.

You say suddenly, we say spent 3 weeks sorting out equipment, rooms, scripts and lessons
Nah, you're wrong. What actually happened is the mean, lazy teachers were doing nothing for weeks, being needlessly obstructive but have done a swift about turn with no additional planning or preparation at all. This proves that it was totally possible and appropriate to roll out full live lessons from day one: if only the teachers got off their backsides and were more positive in their thinking.

You say suddenly, we say spent 3 weeks sorting out equipment, rooms, scripts and lessons

Yeah, plenty of schools did that during the Easter break ready to start at the beginning of term.

complete opposite at our school.

Hence live lessons not being appropriate in all contexts. Our students are genuinely struggling to access anything at a prescribed time.

Yeah, plenty of schools did that during the Easter break ready to start at the beginning of term.
Holidays aren't paid time therefore cannot be directed. Many schools have remained open for KW childcare despite no extra pay.

Why would your child be turned into a meme?!?

Screenshot of a video live lesson. Granted this wouldn't happen in a voice only lesson, however my children would make noise.

why? my secondary dc have live lessons online and the clear expectation from school is that they attend. if they can't/won't parent are expected to write a justification.

• only one device per household so parents are using it to work or siblings for other live lessons.
• Internet connections cannot support live lessons and parents online meetings
• students cannot afford to access using mobile data as the lessons are data heavy and they don't have home WiFi
• older siblings caring for younger children in the day while parents work

Let's not even start on the students who have no parental support and have done nothing since March. When we speak to the parents we get "oh they just don't understand, I can't make them work".

But yes by all means wave your magic wand and expect live lessons to work for all

Yeah, plenty of schools did that during the Easter break ready to start at the beginning of term.
Holidays aren't paid time therefore cannot be directed. Many schools have remained open for KW childcare despite no extra pay
I honestly give up.
There's no pleasing some people who have no experience of teaching and don't have children in state schools. Honestly, I wish they'd all sign up to teach and then I'll sit back in anticipation ready for them magically solving all the challenges that thousands of school leaders are working on. Who needs experienced school leaders and teachers when anyone on Mumsnet can do the job from their sofa?