To think the Covid 19 crisis has revealed a scourge of ableism and ageism in our society?

[Madhairday]

I see it on every thread about lockdown. The elderly (over 60s) and vulnerable (of whatever age) are again and again dehumanised and cast as less worthy of help than the young and the fit, who should be prioritised because they have longer and healthier life left before them. Phrases like one I saw just now about how these people will die soon anyway so why are children suffering?

I am really tired of being othered. I am really tired of being made the reason for the suffering endured by many in lockdown. Really tired of being told I should be grateful others are suffering for me. Just really tired.

Before all this I'd never have dreamed these attitudes would come to light, but in the past months I've been repeatedly punched in the gut with some of the words thrown out against the aged and the disabled and chronically ill. It seems that we truly live in a world where not all lives are equal, where in fact many are worth less than others.

Lots of people are suffering due to lockdown and the effects will continue to cause suffering. The shielded know this and are affected by it as much as everyone else. I have lost my income as well as not being able to touch another human being for nearly 3 months. Many of my shielded friends mental health is shot, too, yet on threads about mental health the shielded are yet again othered and in fact blamed for the mental health issues of those not shielding.

Many are suffering in lockdown. We know this. We know the NHS has cut off much treatment (largely because the spread of covid in hospitals is so uncontainable that they cannot risk bringing already vulnerable people onto wards as covid would exacerbate conditions and kill in greater numbers, as well as the risk for frontline staff, yet many people here seem to think the NHS has narrowed down 'because only covid deaths are important to them' )

I am deeply concerned at the level of ableism and ageism I see on here every single day at the moment. If we said someone else's life mattered less because they were black or gay we would rightly be torn to pieces, but so many are saying lives are less due to age and vulnerability, and this is going unchallenged, again and again and again.

I see it. I see it every day. I feel it deep down, a sense of worthlessness because I have long term chronic illnesses. I am likely to live many more years, however, but that doesn't fit in with the narrative so many have built around the shielded and those dying of Covid, that they must be near death anyway.

Do lives really rank one over the other due to age and illness? Is this where we are now?

I agree lockdown is hurting people. I am not one of the lockdown should last forever people. I'm just getting on with shielding quietly and carefully. But I do fear for a second wave if it's relaxed too quickly.

I would like to ask for some compassion today in the way people speak. I'd like to ask that people don't denegrate others as less worthy or state that covid is just a bad cold. Have a care for those who feel othered and dehumanised by the rhetoric that flies at us day after day.

A lot of the posts I have seen that comment on age or 'pre existing conditions' are not an ism. More trying to reassure themselves that they don't fit into the high risk categories, so they will be ok.

I think it reassures some people to know risk is not equal provided they are low risk.

People are scared.

I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns. I just think it's not clear cut.

Honestly? Of course any death is sad. But the death of a 95 year old who has lived a full life is not as tragic as the death of a teenager with their whole life ahead of them.

We all know that Covid19 is more dangerous for the ill and the old. But what many of us are saying is that those people should be shielded and minimise exposure.

For the rest of us, for whom covid isn't a huge risk, we should be allowed to go about our business, and get the kids back to school.

"I think it reassures some people to know risk is not equal provided they are low risk."

Oh definitely. When I feel a bit scared of catching Covid, I tell myself I'm low risk.

Yes I have seen comments about how children,s education shouldn't suffer anymore due to everyone protecting the vulnerable ,and it's not just elderly that are vulnerable although 60 isn't particularly elderly anyway , there are lots of adults and children that are also vulnerable .

It's not so much the reassuring themselves they are lower risk, that is understandable and human. More the othering - the diminishing of the aged and sick as lesser I see so much.

It's not that a young person's death wouldn't be more tragic than a 95 year olds but the way that 95 year old is discussed as unimportant and dehumanised. It's a language thing that reveals ageism.

I agree OP. We should value older people for their knowledge and experience not dismiss them because they have less life left to live.

Dear MHD, I agree with you completely on this. I am glad that you have written your post and I hope it will make people stop and think. I will write more when I have the time - it's such an important topic!

It's difficult. I think quite often people see it on a personal level, where the individual tragedy is clear. Then people also look at population level and yes, I think it is sometimes seen differently. The extreme end of that is the DC style eugenics approach.

I dislike your smokerist and obesistyest post. 2 other factors in risk

Nobody wants the sick or elderly to die but pointing out risk factors calms the fear in lower risk people and highlights the extra care and consideration needed for those in high risk

I agree with you.
I’ve been told I’ll probably die soon anyway, so it’s unfair of me to deny their children access to their prom.
So that’s nice.

My "shielding" relatives in their 80s are getting more social variety from local visitors/ friends than my DCs who are dependent on the values and risk assessments of their friends' parents to be able to meet. We can get out to meet physical needs, but that does not provide external social stimulation to them. An 80yo is more welcome in a shop than an 8yo. Relatives in their 80s have more social skills to maintain contact remotely by phone (and some of their peers will be tech savvy too). My DCs can't handle phone conversation. DM has the autonomy to leave her house if she wishes, but she is quite happy with her set up... my DCs aren't. For my DCs a 5 minute walk to the shop involves going past padlocked playgrounds, shut-up schools, closed community centres and locked up leisure centres, all normal social outlets that they now can't access. For MiL who is getting frail, life has changed very little compared to a year ago when she didn't choose to go out frequently anyway. DM is fortunate to have the physical company of her cats which is enough for her tactile needs.

People who are dependent on social care are in a harder position. I feel for those facing isolation in care homes with minimal contact, and interaction impeded by PPE. For many, I'm not sure if the risk management is worth the costs. To me quality of life outweighs quantity, whether that was my grandad in his 80s, or uncle in his 40s, both equally reached a state of health where death was a natural conclusion to their life. Not so for my dad in his 50s who had much more potential to manage a health problem and adjust his lifestyle and enjoy decades of living.

But generally, children are facing a harder toll in cost-benefit analysis compared to people aged 65+ or 80+. The toll on individuals will vary to their circumstances.

Ableism, I'm more able to agree. Fortunately current guidence and our lifestyle mean that I don't have to attempt to cover the face of a 9yo with SPD/ Autism who is extremely particular about clothes and fabrics. I can understand how masks are very problematic for sensory issues and also hearing impairment. My auditory processing isn't great and the loss of facial expression, lip reading and muffling of sound is problematic to effective communication, more so to people with more significant hearing loss.
Lack of access to public toilet facilities is highly punitive to a whole range of bladder/ bowel and mobility conditions.

I agree with you OP, it’s been awful.

I think this undercurrent has been going on for a while and Covid has just highlighted it.

Think about the way disability benefit claimants are now assumed to be fraudulent and have to prove otherwise in order to claim. The way disabled people in general are disregarded in society - I am disabled and so is my son. My son has hidden disabilities (autism and learning disabilities) and people are just so judgemental. Not all people but lots. People assume anyone parking in a blue badge bay who can physically walk are lying cheats etc. Elderly people are treated like they are a waste of space and regularly joked about as being “coffin dodgers”. There’s a really nasty streak of all this thats been going on in our society for a while.

I was having this conversation with my 23yo disabled dd the other day. She says she always felt a lot of the bullying she was exposed to as a child (and the worst culprits were not other children but adults!) sprang out of that desire of people to convince themselves that this couldn't happen to me, there's got to be something wrong with that girl that explains why it's happened to her and couldn't happen to me.

Now she has had to sit in on meetings of her HE institution where classmates, who know her and know she is vulnerable, have insisted that the school should go back to normal straightaway before safety measures can be put in place because they are fed up with being at home and this illness only kills people with pre-existing conditions anyway so why are the principals bothering about that?

Should add that this is an environment that is quite exceptionally conducive to the spread of infection and that the principals are taking this into account. But nice to know that your classmates don't consider your life of any importance.

Those saying people with underlying conditions should be shielded- have you any idea how many undiagnosed people there are? I was tested for mine aged 30 and have been on meds ever since, my db wasn't and had a stroke shortly after his 50th birthday. Nobody had suspected he might be at risk. Active, slim, non-smoker, non-drinker, healthy outdoors lifestyle. I just happened to be lucky enough to have a very conscientious GP.

Completely agree OP. Friend recently commented online that if it was kids that covid affected badly, friend would be concerned and would be extremely cautious, but as it’s just older people with health conditions, who would most likely die within the next 6-12 months anyway, don’t see why they should take it seriously.
Aside from the fact this really isn’t true at all, it’s so dismissive.

Think about the way disability benefit claimants are now assumed to be fraudulent and have to prove otherwise in order to claim. The way disabled people in general are disregarded in society

Completely agree with this. It's been an undercurrent for years, hasn't it :(

Cory I'm so sorry your DD is facing that and made to feel lesser

Waves to @OutwiththeOutCrowd

I agree, OP. I have a type 1 diabetic 10 year old. The statistics on type 1 are frightening but across type 1 forums I am supposed to be reassured....wait for it..,,that no one under 20 with type 1 has died. Fucking 20 years old. A condition that no one asked for and with which you can live a long and productive life and we’re supposed to be reassured that no one under 20 has died in this pandemic. Let that sink in for a bit and then try and argue that ageism and ableism aren’t a thing.

PS yes, I am fully aware that the majority who have died with type 1 are over 70. But still, 20.

How are you proposing to shield the vulnerable people? Many of them have children themselves, what do we do about them? How will the vulnerable go to the hospital safely? How can they travel safely? These are the people that need hospital visits more than other groups. Many use public transport. What about the nurses, carers and doctors they encounter?

I agree that some things need to go back but we can't just claim that all young people should be ok. I'm vulnerable due to my health problems, I'm 40 and pregnant with a high risk pregnancy so lots of hospital visits. I need other people to stay at a distance from me and stay away if they have a cough or feel ill. At the very least these measures and hygiene measures should be upholded.

I am not sick, I have asthma, I have had it for 40 years, I am not expecting to die particularly early, I do 9 - 10 hours of exercise a week 7-8 of which are cardio. I am vulnerable, not sick or old.

There is also a quite ridiculous assumption that everybody elderly would die within the next 6 months anyway.

People in their 70s not only have active lives- a lot of them provide childcare for their grandchildren, they form the bulk of the volunteers running charitable organisations of all sorts (heritage, welfare, wildlife, Friends of hospitals). They are spouses, carers, neighbours, people who throw parties or play music or just- live.

Same goes for underlying conditions. I was diagnosed aged 30: since then I have had 2 children, raised a family, worked for in my profession, still have at least 11 years before retirement, after which I hope I will be able to write my Big Book. The way some people are talking I should have dropped dead in 1994.

cross-posted with maddening

the death of a 95 year old who has lived a full life is not as tragic

This is kind of what the OP is talking about.

Personally, all the people I know who have been told to shield are young (20s/30s), most of them have jobs, some of them have kids.

The assumption that shielding means 95yr olds is causing a lot of damage.

Absolutely agree OP.

Although in real life, the foul comments about the elderly and vulnerable have been fewer than the bile I've read on here.

I'd like to think that all the "but they are elderly/disabled so were going to die anyway sooner than me" posters are all Borisbots lapping up his initial obscene comments about "if X number of the elderly die, so be it" but sadly, I think there are too many selfish fuckers around who do think like the eugenicists.

It's certainly shown us, if MN can be seen as a microcosm of the macrocosm, that our elderly and disabled are considered liabilities rather than just people like the rest of us.

To counter though, I've seen some lovely stuff on local Facebook groups (though of course according to the snobby MN demographic they are only there to be taken the piss out of) People going over and above to help out their vulnerable neighbours, anything from passing on crime novels to actually feeding them.

True colours indeed.

Yeah the shielding are according to some low hanging fruit who give nothing to society. Would be disgusting even if true but actually many shielding are still wfh and paying taxes etc and do not have a reduced life expectancy.
I have a pre existing condition but actually I am totally well but if I died of Covid some woyld say o well just another person with a pre existing condition. It doesn't affect healthy so why should I be inconvenienced.
Be kind didn't last long.