To think the Covid 19 crisis has revealed a scourge of ableism and ageism in our society?

[Madhairday]

I see it on every thread about lockdown. The elderly (over 60s) and vulnerable (of whatever age) are again and again dehumanised and cast as less worthy of help than the young and the fit, who should be prioritised because they have longer and healthier life left before them. Phrases like one I saw just now about how these people will die soon anyway so why are children suffering?

I am really tired of being othered. I am really tired of being made the reason for the suffering endured by many in lockdown. Really tired of being told I should be grateful others are suffering for me. Just really tired.

Before all this I'd never have dreamed these attitudes would come to light, but in the past months I've been repeatedly punched in the gut with some of the words thrown out against the aged and the disabled and chronically ill. It seems that we truly live in a world where not all lives are equal, where in fact many are worth less than others.

Lots of people are suffering due to lockdown and the effects will continue to cause suffering. The shielded know this and are affected by it as much as everyone else. I have lost my income as well as not being able to touch another human being for nearly 3 months. Many of my shielded friends mental health is shot, too, yet on threads about mental health the shielded are yet again othered and in fact blamed for the mental health issues of those not shielding.

Many are suffering in lockdown. We know this. We know the NHS has cut off much treatment (largely because the spread of covid in hospitals is so uncontainable that they cannot risk bringing already vulnerable people onto wards as covid would exacerbate conditions and kill in greater numbers, as well as the risk for frontline staff, yet many people here seem to think the NHS has narrowed down 'because only covid deaths are important to them' )

I am deeply concerned at the level of ableism and ageism I see on here every single day at the moment. If we said someone else's life mattered less because they were black or gay we would rightly be torn to pieces, but so many are saying lives are less due to age and vulnerability, and this is going unchallenged, again and again and again.

I see it. I see it every day. I feel it deep down, a sense of worthlessness because I have long term chronic illnesses. I am likely to live many more years, however, but that doesn't fit in with the narrative so many have built around the shielded and those dying of Covid, that they must be near death anyway.

Do lives really rank one over the other due to age and illness? Is this where we are now?

I agree lockdown is hurting people. I am not one of the lockdown should last forever people. I'm just getting on with shielding quietly and carefully. But I do fear for a second wave if it's relaxed too quickly.

I would like to ask for some compassion today in the way people speak. I'd like to ask that people don't denegrate others as less worthy or state that covid is just a bad cold. Have a care for those who feel othered and dehumanised by the rhetoric that flies at us day after day.

With regards to the ageism if CV affected the young

Funny how the posts of posters referencing vulnerable young people seem to become invisible on these threads.

The main reasons we are shielding as much as we can is not because of myself and dh- we would probably have a fair chance of pulling through; it is because of our vulnerable daughter. Dh who is 60 is prepared to accept lockdown for a long time to protect her.

I know my parents, in their late 80s, are taking all sorts of precautions to protect their vulnerable son- have also mentioned any hospital staff they might infect if they were taken ill. I know this is taking a mental toll on my mother and for herself she might prefer to risk it, but she is totally committed to protecting those who haven't had the chance of living such a long life as she has.

"I really don't think that the elderly would have accepted being on lockdown when they are low risk the same way that children have."

Small children don't really have many choices.
Teenagers where I live have never obeyed lockdown.

What my mother did say the other day was "when you're my age, you do accept that death is round the corner, but it's about others too".

Well my kids don't feel thrown under a bus.

They can see the bigger and actually would rather miss their Prom than lose yet another relative.

Maybe ask the 95yr old if she wants to up her chances at a few more years of life

I don’t agree with how lockdown (and the crisis in general) has been handled, but using a hypothetical 95yr old as a representative for shielding/vulnerable people just promotes the idea that medically vulnerable people are disposable.

Would you say, “Maybe ask the 5 year old transplant recipient if he wants to up his chances” or “maybe ask the 30-something mum of three going through chemo if she’s willing to sacrifice children’s education to spare her own life”?

"Yes on the whole if a teenager dies that has their whole life ahead of them it is heartbreaking, but if it is your elderly relative that dies or your relative with an underlying health complication that dies it hurts just as much."
We are a part of our parents and, however old we get, it hurts greatly when they die. To me, the older they are when they die just means you've loved them for a lot longer. (Of course that may not apply on MN where many seem to have gone NC with theirs - some for very valid reasons).

When you lose a second parent you often feel you have lost your foundation in life as well as the actual people they were. We often don't truly appreciate all that they have taught us until they have gone.

We are a part of our parents and, however old we get, it hurts greatly when they die

Yes but it's perfectly normal that we lose our parents and I speak as someone who lost their parents very young.

The only other alternative is that our parents outlive us which is a far worse fate.

Oh good, the ableism and ageism thread has gotten around to 'yes, but it's not the same when an old/disabled person dies'. Charming.

Do you all really think the disabled people on this thread want to hear it?

In terms of life years lost, even 90 yr olds lost close to a year of life, if they contracted COVID and died, with younger people in their 50's and 60's losing decades. That matters.

Maybe ask the 95yr old if she wants to up her chances at a few more years of life

This is the kind of conversation my 23yo daughter and the other vulnerable students on her course (the youngest, I think, 18) have had to sit through!!! Those of you worrying about the mental toll staying off school is taking on your children- what kind of mental toll do you suppose that takes???

Oh for goodness sakes.

I'm back at school - we;ve been back here for the last few weeks - and I can tell you, the kids are as they were before. The ones with nice, kind, involved parents are doing fine, just as they were before, the troubled kids from troubled homes are still troubled, the lonely kids are still lonely, the gregarious kids are still racing round the playground with oodles of friends, the bright kids are forging ahead, the kids struggling with learning and other difficulties are still criminally under-resourced, and school still can't solve all social ills.

@corythatwas

"For the record, if I asked my 20yo if the effects on his young life are so bad that he would be happy for his dad (60) to die if that meant he could take his driving licence and apply to the kind of apprenticeship he would enjoy and generally get on with life instead of sticking strictly to his low-paid-not-very-enjoyable-job and not socialising, I'm pretty sure I know the answer."
This is very ambiguous. What do you think his answer would be?

NotEverything, he would laugh in my face at the very thought of his momentary inconvenience being measured against the life of his father. Yes, his life is to a certain extent in limbo but he has good reason to believe he will have a lifetime to catch up. If it means working a little harder, then he will work a little harder. If it takes a little longer before he can move from home, then he will take that.

Oh good, the ableism and ageism thread has gotten around to 'yes, but it's not the same when an old/disabled person dies'. Charming.

I agree. Especially that old people and disabled/medically vulnerable people are being lumped into the same category, with the hypothetical “95 year old who’s lived a full life” used to represent all of them when most disabled/medically vulnerable people are not 95.

One of my friends had a kidney transplant when she was a baby. She’s in uni now. She isn’t someone who’s lived a full life, or only has a few years left anyway, or any of the other things said to justify her life being worth less.

The whole of society pretty much globally has stopped to protect those who are vulnerable, to try not to overwhelm services so more die than needed to.

If that isn't good enough then I'm not sure what will be.

If people didn't care, no low risk people would have done it. Children are not seeing their friends, not going to school. People are losing their jobs, livelihoods. The economy is fucked.

This isn't good enough?

"The only other alternative is that our parents outlive us which is a far worse fate.'
It depends on the circumstances. My friend's 37 year old son has just died a sudden death. She is devastated and because of his poor mental health, she wanted him to die before her but many, many years into the future. (She knew he wouldn't cope without her).

My former ndns had a mentally disabled child who died aged 52 before they died. They were heartbroken but were so worried about what would have happened to her if they'd died first. They preferred that she went first.

It seems to be inherently obvious to me that in aggregate (and in formulating policies on healthcare due example it is the aggregate effects that we need to consider) younger lives are worth more than older ones. And placing a financial value on an extra year of human life is something which policymakers have to do all the time, and indeed all of us individually do it intuitively without thinking about it when thinking about what risks we take in our day-to-day lives.

Yeah, fuck it I'm disabled in my 40's, active and healthy and work full time.. but ill take one for the team.

We are all in it together after all.

Would you say, “Maybe ask the 5 year old transplant recipient if he wants to up his chances” or “maybe ask the 30-something mum of three going through chemo if she’s willing to sacrifice children’s education to spare her own life”?

This.

@janeskettle

Oh good, the ableism and ageism thread has gotten around to 'yes, but it's not the same when an old/disabled person dies'. Charming.

Do you all really think the disabled people on this thread want to hear it?

Exactly. It's also being made about children, AGAIN.

I agree with ShinyFootball

The whole of society pretty much globally has stopped to protect those who are vulnerable, to try not to overwhelm services so more die than needed to.

Again, this feeds into the narrative that therefore vulnerable people should be damn grateful and stop whining, because all these young and fit people are sacrificing themselves and their children's entire futures so they can have a few more months of life.

Or so it goes.

The lockdown was to stop the NHS being overwhelmed and thus to protect all sectors of society who need to access it at any level. The shielding are being asked to shield in order to achieve this as if they take up NHS resources for Covid they will take up a significant amount more than the healthy in terms of time and equipment and thus be a blockage to more young and healthy people getting treatment if needed. It's only a side effect that the shielded are being protected for their own health - I promise you that the government have not suddenly started caring about the sick and disabled to the extent that they make the lockdown all about protecting them.

I know lots of people who have had urgent treatment stopped because of this including someone with cancer. Dental services aren't happening. Loads of people have lost their income.

Etc etc

On top of all this you want people to not mention the fact this is all a pretty big deal?

The price to everybody will be huge for years into the future because of this.

If people didn't care they wouldn't have on the whole abided by the rules.

No where in there did I say anyone should be grateful.

What more do you want global society to do about this?

OMG please stop with the story about how relieved parents are when their disabled children die first. Please.

Please, just as you try not to be racist, try not to be ableist?

I'm not a part of the disability community. I have a chronic illness, but that is very different to living with a disability. But either some people don't think before you post, or you really do not care about the lives, dignity and mental wellbeing of those who are different abled to you.

Well that's clearly a personal choice @NotEverythingisBlackandWhite I have a child with autism and severe learning who I do not want to outlive him I want him I have a long and happy life with lots of support probably living in supported accommodation in many years to come don't base your limited and not personal experience how you think parents of disabled children and adults should feel..