To think the Covid 19 crisis has revealed a scourge of ableism and ageism in our society?

[Madhairday]

I see it on every thread about lockdown. The elderly (over 60s) and vulnerable (of whatever age) are again and again dehumanised and cast as less worthy of help than the young and the fit, who should be prioritised because they have longer and healthier life left before them. Phrases like one I saw just now about how these people will die soon anyway so why are children suffering?

I am really tired of being othered. I am really tired of being made the reason for the suffering endured by many in lockdown. Really tired of being told I should be grateful others are suffering for me. Just really tired.

Before all this I'd never have dreamed these attitudes would come to light, but in the past months I've been repeatedly punched in the gut with some of the words thrown out against the aged and the disabled and chronically ill. It seems that we truly live in a world where not all lives are equal, where in fact many are worth less than others.

Lots of people are suffering due to lockdown and the effects will continue to cause suffering. The shielded know this and are affected by it as much as everyone else. I have lost my income as well as not being able to touch another human being for nearly 3 months. Many of my shielded friends mental health is shot, too, yet on threads about mental health the shielded are yet again othered and in fact blamed for the mental health issues of those not shielding.

Many are suffering in lockdown. We know this. We know the NHS has cut off much treatment (largely because the spread of covid in hospitals is so uncontainable that they cannot risk bringing already vulnerable people onto wards as covid would exacerbate conditions and kill in greater numbers, as well as the risk for frontline staff, yet many people here seem to think the NHS has narrowed down 'because only covid deaths are important to them' )

I am deeply concerned at the level of ableism and ageism I see on here every single day at the moment. If we said someone else's life mattered less because they were black or gay we would rightly be torn to pieces, but so many are saying lives are less due to age and vulnerability, and this is going unchallenged, again and again and again.

I see it. I see it every day. I feel it deep down, a sense of worthlessness because I have long term chronic illnesses. I am likely to live many more years, however, but that doesn't fit in with the narrative so many have built around the shielded and those dying of Covid, that they must be near death anyway.

Do lives really rank one over the other due to age and illness? Is this where we are now?

I agree lockdown is hurting people. I am not one of the lockdown should last forever people. I'm just getting on with shielding quietly and carefully. But I do fear for a second wave if it's relaxed too quickly.

I would like to ask for some compassion today in the way people speak. I'd like to ask that people don't denegrate others as less worthy or state that covid is just a bad cold. Have a care for those who feel othered and dehumanised by the rhetoric that flies at us day after day.

The posts I have seen about individuals do care. It's when people look at the relative risk of different groups that it changes. Nobody (I hope) would say 95 year old granny with dementia is disposable. But some are more comfortable with the idea of risk if it will affect 95 year olds with dementia. If that makes sense?

I'm not saying it's right.

The balance of economy vs lives is a political decision. Brazil has taken one approach, NZ at the opposite end. We're probably slightly closer to the Brazilian approach.

I don't know what the answer is op. I think Covid is magnifying a lot of things, making bias easier to see.

I know lots of people who have had urgent treatment stopped because of this including someone with cancer. Dental services aren't happening. Loads of people have lost their income.

But this would happen if there was no lockdown, most likely to a much worse extent: if hospitals were overwhelmed there would be no treatment for anything including covid. As it is most hospitals have continued vital treatment - 3 of my friends have continued with cancer treatment, my brother had a kidney op etc etc. People keep saying they know people who have been denied treatment but for every one of those there is someone who knows someone who still has treatment, or has it themselves. My doctors are still treating me. And if this thing had run rampant do you not think people would have not lost their income? Of course we can make a big deal that it's happening and hurting people, but that's not addressing what I was talking about in the op which is the endemic ableism and ageism so highlighted by the way people choose to talk about what is happening. So because of this, disabled and vulnerable people are left feeling so much lesser and as if they are to blame for the lockdown hurting so many others. However much it is couched in the language of concern for all those affected by lockdown, if we are not careful the vulnerable are left with the impression that if we were out of the way lots of people would be a whole load better off.

The price to everybody will be huge for years into the future because of this.

I have never said it will not be. That is not what my post is about. I am not an advocate for extended lockdown, I am merely trying to draw attention to the way language has been used that dehumanises a minority group.

Totally agree. The amount of people I have seen assuming only the elderly are vulnerable or that those who are vulnerable will die soon anyway is shocking. I am 38. Yes I am immuno suppressed due to an immune condition and have asthma, but my doctors don't expect me to die any time soon. My friend's 12 year old son is also shielding, again, not expected to die any time soon.

I am also not saying we have to lockdown forever but those who are saying keep the shielded at home and everyone else go on with their lives are ignoring the fact that it isn't that simple. I know people who are shielding that have jobs and mortgages, SSP isn't going to cut it and several are already being pressured to go back. Also, how do we get to hospital appointments? I have to use public transport, I can't walk or cycle to the hospital and there isn't enough hospital transport in our area. I can't isolate from my husband in our home as it is a one bed open plan. Are we suggesting the 12 year old mentioned should live in his bedroom for the next year?

I didn't ask to be born with an immune condition. I get there are no easy answers here. But I and many others feel forgotten in all of this or unimportant.

You feel "forgotten" when society has been shut down for months to protect you from a virus that is so mild many people who get it don't even have any symptoms?

Society was shut down to prevent overwhelming the NHS, which would have affected anyone needing to use it.

Also, I know two people who would be called young and healthy who got Covid. Both have problems with their organs following it and it doesn't seem like they are alone. There is a thread on the coronavirus topic about people having lasting issues after having mild cases.

Oh and the forgotten comment was mostly referring to people, including those on their thread who keep talking about the elderly or the vulnerable as people who will die soon. That isn't true at all for many in the shielding or clinically vulnerable group. The forgotten also applies to how people are expected to keep shielding without consideration by the government that people have jobs or may not live alone. Or that they may need to use public transport as when everyone goes back to work, there may be fewer who have the time to pick up medication or go shopping.

@x2boys
"Well that's clearly a personal choice @NotEverythingisBlackandWhite"
Yes, not that we get a choice, obviously, but that is what one of them hoped for (but not anywhere near this soon) and what the other in retrospect felt. These are their feelings, not mine.

I did say "It depends on the circumstances" in response to a poster saying "'the only other alternative is that our parents outlive us which is a far worse fate". I was just pointing that some don't necessarily think that is a far worse fate. My friends clearly don't hold that view.

"don't base your limited and not personal experience how you think parents of disabled children and adults should feel."
I have not and would not tell parents of the disabled how to feel at all. You are reading something in my post that isn't there.

In the two situations I referred to, only one was disabled. My friend's 37 year old son wasn't disabled.

Nihiloxica , society was not shut down for months to protect me or most of people shielding as it was made very clear if we get the virus we were on our own, no ventilator for me, despite having 2 young dc, and a chronic rather than terminal illness, so probably 50 plus years of life left.

Society was shut down as it seemed ( for a short while )to badly affect middle aged white men like Boris and most of the cabinet.
as soon as more stats were available showing it mostly affected BAME,
working class and the disabled, back we went to herd immunity and full steam ahead to save the economy.

Of course it has. But i've seen just as many 'mental health isn't a priority, we're supposed to be protecting the vulnerable to CV' posts as I have 'let the vulnerable to CV stay in while the rest of us get on with our lives'.

Still abelism, but this crisis really shocked me in the lack of regard for, and understanding of, MH issues.

But the MH of vulnerable and shielding people has often been callously discounted, Everything. With remarks like 'the vulnerable should just shut themselves away so people stop committing suicide because of lockdown' - again that angle of blame on the vulnerable. This disregards the very stark truth that a large proportion of the vulnerable in fact suffer with significant mental health issues themselves due to the nature of their conditions. Their lives are diminished in the narrative of protecting the mental health for all.

There is so much ignorance and incorrect info on MN. I don't know if people are just thick or can't be bothered to watch Govt briefings or go to Govt websites for correct information.

Thankfully, some posters are correcting others' wrong information that we are locked down to protect the vulnerable. We are locked down to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed.

OP, you are totally correct in everything you have said on this thread. Sadly, as you will have seen by some of the vile things said on here, some people are incapable of understanding the viewpoints of others no matter how articulately you put it. However, in real life, I am pleased to say I know no-one who says the sort of things about the shielding or elderly that I have read on here.

There are many compassionate and understanding people around so please don't think that the vile views of some on MN are representative. They really aren't.

Thank you NotEverything.

Can we not be concerned about everyone? Can we not be concerned with the economy whilst also wanting to make sure those who need more protection get it? Can we not be concerned about access to mental health services for all?

As for NHS treatments, some are going, some are not. What generally isn't is the community based services, that is a massive worry, long term lockdown has the potential to have a very negative effect on many parts of an individual's health. The death's due to lockdown have potential to completely dwarf the number from the very disease we lockdowned to protect from.

There is a real risk of decreased mobility, an increased risk of falls and that can cause a massive snowball. The services who are usually involved have been paused, it is a worry.

this crisis really shocked me in the lack of regard for, and understanding of, MH issues.

The NHS is famously overstretched but its MH funding is ridiculously lacking. I've personally tried to get help and advocate for a young adult needing help and been ignored and sidelined. Considering that the powers that be don't consider MH important, I am not surprised that the general public can ignore it too

Agree with that, flamingo. Mental health services have been eroded and cut down to the bone over the last years especially. Which will have a knock on effect combined with lockdown and how it's affected people - including the physically vulnerable who many seem to want to hide away, and in fact be erased altogether.

I keep reading the same thing on multiple threads. Mental Vs physical health. Shielding Vs children. Why are people polarising? Why not compassion and understanding for all who are suffering?

Exactly, @Madhairday. But the Govt love it when people are pitted against eachother - Divide and conquer, that's what keeps them in power and stops the people from unifying against the Govt.

There seems to be a level of resentment that retired people can exercise more freedom over their lives in lockdown - go out or shut themselves away, make plans or not to see people in person afterwards. There needs to be a more tailored approach to lockdown but the size of our population makes this difficult.

I feel for those in care homes who had no choice - Covid-positive patients having being moved in, as health bosses seemed desperate to get them out of the hospitals, resulting in spread of the infection.

Young people are at school for 14 years, this period is not long in their lives overall. I have teenagers, old enough to understand and being lazy for a while at home, very young children will recover.

Services do need to be restarted , eg mental health services - much more important than Ikea or McDonalds. Why can Cheshire Oaks reopen but not Chester Zoo?

You feel "forgotten" when society has been shut down for months to protect you from a virus that is so mild many people who get it don't even have any symptoms?

Society did not shut down for months to protect us shielders. It was to protect the nhs from becoming overwhelmed. The shielded are shielding not only to protect ourselves, but to protect every one else too.
I'm not old and useless. I'm early 50's, I have 3 children and 6 grandchildren, all who are ok and coping well.
Before COVID19 I owned a thriving business, paid my taxes, enjoyed life. I have 2 conditions that put me in the shielding list and am disabled. The only help I've had from the government during the last 12 weeks is 3 food boxes. No grant because I don't have premises, no 80% of earnings because for the tax year applicable I earned more from employment than self employment. My business is closed. It's impossible to carry it on unless I can leave the house and supply my retail outlets. We are living on savings and my husbands pension
I've agreed with my gp to have a dnr put on my notes so I won't be taking a ventilator from a healthy person
Don't you dare try to make me feel guilty for what's happened!!!

Oh good, now we're up to 'one woman says she doesn't want to steal ventilators from the young' so all those who are aware of the exponential growth of ageism and ableism should be quiet and embrace this apparently socially acceptable form of prejudice and discrimination

Just say you're all fans of euthanasing the elderly and the disabled 'for their own good, it's a kindness' and be done with it.

You’re completely correct, OP. It’s been very disheartening to read the callous posts on MN of late. I am shielding myself, as is my brother; we are both in our late 40s. He is in late stage cancer, I have a chronic auto-immune condition with accompanying low immunity. According to most of these posters, though, we’re expendable. This smacks of eugenics to me - but i don’t know they recognise it. That’s terrifying.

I'm sorry OP but my father (in his 70s, asthmatic) while worried about his own high risk, is still horrified at the sacrifice his generation is demanding of their children and grandchildren in terms of the long term impacts of isolation, missing education etc.

My own grandfather will be turning in his grave at the way our society has placed children's needs after everything else, it would have been anathema to him.

No one considers the vulnerable expendable.

But we question whether any of the things we are doing have actually made enough difference. Despite the lockdown, the virus has still wreaked havoc in care homes. Because actually, targeted PPE & testing would have been more important than closing the local school.

My view is that giving equal consideration to the needs of the young does not mean abandoning the vulnerable. There was always a different path available that was better for everyone, with much more targeted focus on rigorous protection for the vulnerable, it did not have to mean lockdown for all.

I agree with bogroll on page 1.
Children have been dismissed and have sacrificed a lot, despite not being at risk. My 70 year old dad can play golf, meet friends, go shopping. No one bats an eyelid. My 6 year old saw no one outside the family, didn't visit a shop or play in a park for 11 weeks. If there is ageism there, I'd say it's against the young. Don't get me started on teenagers.

Just say you're all fans of euthanasing the elderly and the disabled 'for their own good, it's a kindness' and be done with it

This is a long way from merely questioning whether the lockdown was the right thing to do based on the ill effects it has had on children

In New Zealand, they locked everything down at the first whisper of COVID, and stayed that way for 5 weeks. The domestic economy is now basically back to normal. During that 5 weeks, everyone was fed and watered, there was economic support for all who needed it. If you had to work (because you worked in food, healthcare, or law--everything else was basically closed), and you had not childcare, you were allocated a state-funded nanny who ONLY worked with your family. No spread. Now there is basically no COVID in New Zealand. Less than 10 weeks after they initially locked down, everyone is back at school, and work, and childcare. Everyone was in it together. Wealthy, male industries such as construction were not more protected than small, household run businesses. If anyone resents anyone, it's the government.

THAT is the way to manage it. Not the endless pissing about going on in the UK, US, Australia or anywhere else. If we had agreed globally to such a scheme back in March, COVID would be eradicated globally by now. The suffering we are ALL experiencing is the result of putting money over people, and corporate interests and "the economy" over lives. And descending into decrying people for worrying about their children's future, or worrying about how the vulnerable will fare long term, or worrying about what this means for how we value the elderly, or even worrying about their own mental health, we should be up in arms about the super-wealthy who have pitted us all against each other. Again.