To think that people who say that school is not childcare are being disingenuous

[Notcontent]

There have been so many threads started by people struggling to work while schools are closed, and invariably there are posters who bang on about how “school is not childcare” etc and people just need to suck it up... there was another one today - about holiday clubs - with someone saying that “holiday clubs are a privilege”!

That makes me so mad. The reality is that children (and actually teenagers too) need care and structure and can’t just be left for days and weeks on end to fend for themselves. In historical times, before we had schools, before most people worked outside the home, young children were looked after at home by extended families and later often worked alongside their parents. Current social structure - where most mend and women work outside the home (and need to do so to support themselves) - relies on schools playing a part.

Good god!! Sometimes I wonder would some parents like if the school collected the child from the bloody maternity ward and dropped them back at 18!!

The ignorance of this.

I can’t even ...

Homemadeandfromscratch

What on earth are you talking about? No I don’t expect schools to open to babysit my child. I imagine I’ll have to take all my annual leave this summer to do it myself, in between working. I don’t EXPECT schools to do anything that isn’t in the best interest of a) kids b) managing the pandemic.

Doesn’t change the fact that NORMALLY my kids aren’t here all the time so I would be able to work, and CURRENTLY I’m in the very difficult situation of educating them, caring for them and working at the same time. I’m sure it’s all lovely for people who don’t have an actual job to do but that doesn’t make it easier for the rest of us.

Fannying around with semantics doesn’t change the fact that we don’t normally need to book childcare to care for kids while they’re in school .

And actually I would like my kids back at school because I would like them to be taught. By a proper qualified teacher. Not by unqualified me splitting my attention between two differently aged kids and a job. But I don’t want them back if it isn’t safe. I’d just like a bit of empathy.

Good god!! Sometimes I wonder would some parents like if the school collected the child from the bloody maternity ward and dropped them back at 18

How about university???

Good god!! Sometimes I wonder would some parents like if the school collected the child from the bloody maternity ward and dropped them back at 18

🤣🤣🤣

What a ridiculous thing to say.

My kids childminder is amazing. We aren't using her at the moment but continuing to pay her. She cares for our children and (shocker) provides education. The two are not mutually exclusive and actually a good setting will do both. I include schools in that. Am slightly offended on her behalf at the horror expressed that schools could be childcare. Is it only parents allowed to care for their children? What's wrong wigh childcare? Is it somehow beneath a school?

My kids go to school to be educated. They are also cared for, because they are good schools. A side benefit is I can be elsewhere to earn money to provide for them.

Ylvamoon
Then you could be a bit more sympathetic! Plus teachers children are classified as key workers children, you can send your children to school, so that you can do your job. A lot of parents currently don't have the option.

Where on earth did you get that I am a teacher? I am not! I work in sales!

My local schools are not opened for my kids yet because I am not a key worker as it happens, even year 1...

Unless you are listening to a poster who is hating teachers so much that anyone who disagree is dumped into the same bag.

Is it only parents allowed to care for their children? What's wrong wigh childcare? Is it somehow beneath a school?

you are missing the point. We send our children to school for their education. If it was for childcare, I can think of better places for them frankly.

Homemadeandfromscratch To be honest, you are splitting hairs. Lack of schooling, regardless if you consider it education, childcare or a mix of both is a massive issue for parents right now.

We both work out of home and our schools are going back part time. It’s a massive worry.

A) I think you'll find parents are very interested in both the education and the childcare element of what schools provide.

B) There is no alternative childcare during school hours for school aged children. There was never any demand for it, because guess what, the vast majority of them were in school.

www.lawandparents.co.uk/what-in-loco-parentis-means-you.html

It would seem that the law actually recognises that school is childcare, at least in part.

Homemadeandfromscratch - in that case you should be even more understanding and sympathetic towards parents with young primary school aged DC.

School is for education purposes hence funded by society. In achieving this aim, during school hours we become loco parentis so provide a form of childcare.

However if a child is not in a place where they can learn and where the learning environment is not working, e.g. Sickness, trauma them school would ask parents to take their children out of school for a period of time. Difference being a nanny, child minder may be willing to care for a child in these situations.

Many parents can afford for both to work because the regularity of the school structure. This allows for a, hopefully, better standard of living for all. It also provides a break for some parents who have children with additional needs, much needed for so many and not enough support given. For some famimies as funding is cut further and further lifelines are being removed and that period during school hours is lost which may have a massive negative impact on them.

During the pandemic we provided childcare for front line workers, wr continue to do this. The debate to be had may be over who, now, actually needs that childcare more luckily it is not for me to make these decisions.

In a normal school year issues arise when arents assume teachers will provide free wrap around care, e.g. They will drop off at 8am whrn temp is - 5 knowing we have a duty of care to keep their child safe even though we are not working at that point. Then they forget or phone to say thery will be late for pick up and arrive 1.5h late. That staff member is paying for their childcare, often extra to cover this so we foot the bill for that parent and they walk away. That i think is where hackles are raised. Obviously this is incases where it is not a 1 off.

Ylvamoon
my point is that I think, wrongly according to some, that children should come first and decisions based around them. Not purely the convenience of the parents, and frankly, not to the exclusive convenience of the teachers either. I have nothing against teachers as it happens, but my primary concern about my kids at school is my kids.

There would be a completely different debate around school opening and holidays (and a lot of things) if the priority was the children, not the "childcare" aspect that some people are so fixated about.

Obviously parents are not expected to attend the school with their kids and be responsible for them there , no one said that.

I think it is helpful to draw a line between the function of schools and the purpose of schools.

I think it's obvious that schools function BOTH as educational facilities and childcare facilities. This IS factually what they do! That's just an observation.

The debate seems not to be about what functions schools actually provide but about their purpose; whether they have just the one purpose - to educate, or they have a primary purpose (provision of education) and a secondary purpose (provision of childcare).

Personally, I really do think it is disingenuous to deny that schools have only one purpose.

Furthermore, I think some people who claim 'schools are not childcare' actually recognise that schools have a dual purpose and function. They just disagree that they SHOULD have more than one purpose and that is what angers them!

This is probably due to a judgment being made about the value of different types of work, with childcare being considered low status and teaching considered high status / a profession.

Great post Chwaraeteg

you do what the rest of us does, you manage because you have bills to pay and children to look after, you don't expect the schools to suddenly open in July and August to babysit your child....

So what is the magic answer when holiday clubs and relatives are not open, and someone cannot work from home?

I managed by being made redundant from my job of 13 years and now being unable to find another one due to lack of childcare. LUCKY ME.

EachDubh i agree that in normal times, some people take the piss. Our school is clear about when they are responsible for our kids and when we are. I am aware some people do exploit this.

Current situation is not normal and I don't see why pre covid issues should mean that we cannot adapt to the current exceptional circumstances. Everyone is having to adapt and work in ways they wouldn't normally. It's part of being in a society.

Not RTFT

yes disingenuous.

This is probably due to a judgment being made about the value of different types of work, with childcare being considered low status and teaching considered high status / a profession.

wow that is such a massive leap! And a ridiculous one sorry.

Being at school on a normal day means sitting in a class of 30 for at least 5 hours a day. If I was only looking for childcare, I can think of so many other things my kids would be happier with!
Being in their own home, doing a sports camp, the list is pretty endless frankly. And the reasoning behind MANY (not all obviously) decisions to home ed'.

obviously there is such a thing as "business and school hours". I just cannot agree that the primary reason - or any reason at all - for sending children to school is babysitting.

The before and after-school clubs are babysitting actually, and no one expect them to teach the children anything, just keep them in one piece, entertained and happy.

you do what the rest of us does, you manage because you have bills to pay and children to look after, you don't expect the schools to suddenly open in July and August to babysit your child

That just isn't possible for everyone. The fact you think that 'the rest of us' can do it shows your privilege and lack of empathy.

Homemadeandfromscratch - I put my children's welfare first, thank you.

That is that they are much safer and better looked after in school. Because as it stands, I will have to leave them on their own for around 9 hours on 4 days out of 7 because I can't work from home/ I have been called back to work / I can't afford to quit my job. The same applies to my DH who will be back at work doing 12 hour shifts by nx week.

There is no alternative child care, home schooling will have to be the absolute minimum... so yep to me, sending them to school even on reduced hours and the Corona risk is better for their wellbeing than being left on their own for such a long time.

I know my kids, they are old enough to be left. But I don't know what I would do if they were younger. I think as a parent, I sympathise with all other parents who have young children that can't be left. They truly are between a rock and a hard place!

The primary function of school is to educate. By default that also provides childcare, obvious in a 7 year old, but not an essential function in a 17 year old who can care for themselves while parents work.

Childcare is structured around school and its routines, wraparound care, child minders and holiday clubs operate around those routines. When DS1 was in yR his class was hit heavily by strike action from the TAs. We paid for wrap around care but found ourselves umpteen times in a situation where there was no childcare avaliable from 12pm to 3:20 when the after school club started. In a situation where family is nowhere near local and either elderly and past driving or working full time, there was no other childcare option but to abort work and collect him. Fortunately DH is reasonably flexible, but there were days that he wasn't even on this continent so I had to leave my school and bring him back into my lessons for the afternoon. Very far from ideal.

You can't just book a childminder or nanny for a random couple of hours at short notice and expect a child to be cared for by a total stranger. It turns out DS has ASD so that would be really inappropriate even if it was viable.

While school isn't childcare, when school is not able to accommodate children for pandemics/ strikes/ illness/ water leak/ whatever, it very quickly flags up that there are minimal childcare options that cover 9-3:30 in the term time. Illness is one of those things with children and an occasional day or two is normal, but anything prolonged or frequent is a working parent's nightmare.

Fortunately childcare has not been one of my problems in recent months because that strike action was one of the final nails in the coffin of my teaching career as we were struggling to manage 100+ hours of working between us with no backup options and it made more financial sense for DH to continue in the much better paid job and better career progression and me to become a SAHM.

Childcare is a feminist issue.

As others have said teachers act by law 'in loco parentis' or in place of parents.

UK society is pretty much geared around working parent/s and child/ren in school. Yes there are differences to this but that is the 'standard' way and also the ideal governments promote. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

Saying that 'school isn't childcare' is like looking at an orange and denying that is it also round, and a fruit. It makes you look silly.

Funny how on MN school must never be considered as any form supervision for children away from the home, while parents work, that is unless you are on benefits of any kind and then you're told you should work while the children are at school.
Call it childcare, call it education, call it loco parentis, call it adults supervising children and ensuring they're safe while teaching them, doesn't matter.
The results are still the same, the government expect that if your children are in school (a safe and supervised place) you work, and they taper the benefits system accordingly.
Most people agree with that. Of course it's going to cause problems for some when it's closed, and other options such as childminders, grandparents, family/friends and nurseries are also restricted.
I can't believe how people have actually made an argument over this. Some people really could cause a row in an empty room couldn't they.

School is primarily for education. This luckily has the effect of providing free at the point of use childcare. I think most accept this. Obviously this has caused massive problems for people during the pandemic, but that is not usual. I think the normal "school isn't childcare" come when a small number of parental voices on MN call for a 8-6 day, 50 week a year school, because of childcare. They aren't many, but they exist. They should be calling for better childcare options.