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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

You're white. You haven't experienced racism

999 replies

PatricksRum · 04/06/2020 00:29

I'm so sick of repeating myself today.
AIBU or is ignorance just bliss?

OP posts:
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23
WhoAteAllTheWotsits · 04/06/2020 12:38

These examples of racist remarks and attacks from black/Muslim people towards white people, yes they may be racist but it’s not systemic racism, it’s not institutionalised racism, it’s not racism carried out by someone in a position of power towards you.

When you have been abused like that, yes it’s awful and should not be allowed but it is a symptom of a bigger problem - systemic racism.

People need to watch the documentary 13th to really understand what I’m trying to say.

MarshaBradyo · 04/06/2020 12:40

Op I agree with you, if you are still reading I’m interested in what you would like to say. Maybe the thread is too much to return to which I get.

MrsFogi · 04/06/2020 12:43

Hmm - maybe not racism but I certainly was discriminated against many years ago in N Ireland for being Catholic (apparently I look Catholic!!).

LydiaDusbyn · 04/06/2020 12:45

I find the "You're white. You haven't experienced racism." one of the most racist presumptions imaginable.

Karmagoat · 04/06/2020 12:45

WhoAteAllTheWotsits I agree with you totally that what I experienced was racism but not systemic racism and I do understand what you're saying.

ShutUpaYourFace · 04/06/2020 12:46

As a white person, what can I do?
What can I do to make things better?
Talking about things that happened in the past 400 years is not going to solve what happens now.
I keep being told I have white privilege,
I agree, but what am I supposed to do?
I can't change the colour of my skin or walk in anyone else's shoes. My children are taught to respect others and to treat everyone as they wish to be treated themselves.
What else can I do?

Quartz2208 · 04/06/2020 12:46

White Privilege exists
Systemic and institutionalised racism exists particularly in the US and the West

That does mean you cannot experience racism because you are white and indeed that we should extrapolate it from what we have in the West to the rest of the world.

But arguing doesnt solve the problem

P999 · 04/06/2020 12:47

Why the aggressive them and us? I'm a woman, but I won't kick a man in the balls if he hasn't experienced sexism. I'll only kick him in the balls if he is sexist or doesn't stand up to sexism. Until then, i dont want to divide us.

SuckingDieselFella · 04/06/2020 12:49

@WhoAteAllTheWotsits

These examples of racist remarks and attacks from black/Muslim people towards white people, yes they may be racist but it’s not systemic racism, it’s not institutionalised racism, it’s not racism carried out by someone in a position of power towards you.

When you have been abused like that, yes it’s awful and should not be allowed but it is a symptom of a bigger problem - systemic racism.

People need to watch the documentary 13th to really understand what I’m trying to say.

I've twice experienced racism carried out by someone in a position of power towards me. There are certain workplaces where I wouldn't be welcome.

I'm white.

LydiaDusbyn · 04/06/2020 12:50

"I'll only kick him in the balls if he... doesn't stand up to sexism."

I understand the anger on here. But why all the aggression and threats of violence?

OchonAgusOchonO · 04/06/2020 12:52

@Mittens030869 - The abuse towards Irish people in the 1980s would have been because of the Troubles. Any Irish person was at risk of being arrested in connection with IRA bombings, when they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Oh well, that's all right then. Perhaps you could also justify the "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish" signs in London in the 50's/60's? Irish people being beaten up and verbally abused for being Irish in the 80's? What about the institutional discrimination against nationalists in NI whereby they were denied jobs and housing?
It has nothing to do with race, it's xenophobia more than anything else.

While technically correct, the definition of race as per the equality act includes nationality so it is not limited to race.

Mittens030869 · 04/06/2020 12:55

I'm not justifying it at all. It was very wrong and xenophobic, as I said. All I meant was that racism wasn't the cause. In the same way that I wasn't abused as a child because of racism, it doesn't mean it wasn't horrible.

Evil things are done every day, it doesn't mean that all of it is because of racism.

WhoAteAllTheWotsits · 04/06/2020 12:55

But was that racism a direct result of years of government decisions, policies, and power? The person who was racist towards you, did they have hundreds of years of indoctrined behaviour and beliefs driving what they said and did?

OchonAgusOchonO · 04/06/2020 12:56

@Cadent - My point is Irish people who have suffered racial prejudice should realise that Irish people (just like white/Asian/Jewish/Muslim people) are racist towards black people and should therefore support black people.

I think you mean SOME Irish people are racist towards black people.

WhoAteAllTheWotsits · 04/06/2020 12:56

That comment was in reply to suckingdiesel, I didn’t quote properly

SuckingDieselFella · 04/06/2020 12:58

@WhoAteAllTheWotsits

I’ve just joined Mumsnet to post on this thread, although I’ve been reading threads for years.

People who say that ‘white people can experience racism too’ and use examples of when they have been targeted for the colour of their skin, (by ethnic minorities) Aren’t really getting one major point: because of colonialism and events in British history like kidnapping African people to be enslaved, and forcing British control in countries like India etc, some countries around the world will have a deep seated hatred of white people for those events.

So if a black person says something derogatory to a white person, it comes from years of white supremacy being forced on those people. It comes from years and years of being enslaved, and having their liberties removed from them DUE TO white privilege.

White people who say they have experienced racist name calling or other attacks also still have white privilege even within these events - they have the privilege of exposing it, and being believed, of being validated by their peers and of it probably being widely denounced.

Sorry if these points have already been made, I haven’t read the full thread. FYI I’m also white.

Anyone who treats someone differently because of their skin colour is a racist. Their skin colour, or the other person's skin colour, is irrelevant. You can't have a get-out clause for some races and not others. This kind of guff is what fuels far right extremism. It's dangerous as well as idiotic.

White people who say they have experienced racist name calling or other attacks also still have white privilege"

Don't be absurd.

Mittens030869 · 04/06/2020 12:58

I am very sorry for what has been done by my country against Irish people. Please don't think I'm justifying it.

The Germans did horrible things to Slavs as well, and my paternal family suffered horribly. But I still wouldn't technically call it racism, because the perpetrators were also white.

Cultural oppression definitely.

june2007 · 04/06/2020 13:01

This reply has been deleted

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FrippEnos · 04/06/2020 13:03

WhoAteAllTheWotsits
These examples of racist remarks and attacks from black/Muslim people towards white people, yes they may be racist but it’s not systemic racism, it’s not institutionalised racism, it’s not racism carried out by someone in a position of power towards you.

Part of the problem is that some on here are not recognising that the remarks/attacks from BAME people are racist.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 04/06/2020 13:03

I think limiting the word racism to mean 'racial prejudice plus power' is problematic.

There are circumstances in which this choice can lead to black people suffering racially-motivated injustices that may not qualify as racism if this more specific meaning is adopted.

A startling assertion, I know. Let me try to justify it through examples.

The vast majority of people in the South African cabinet are black - which is as it should be given the demographic of the country. Slowly a more equal society is emerging there.

Suppose that, against this backdrop, a black person in South Africa is treated badly by a white person, simply because they are black. There is a danger that, with residual inequalities fading away, it will become harder and harder to justify calling this racism, given that a person can only be racist, by the more limited definition, if they share a racial heritage with those who set the agenda at the highest levels of office.

Nevertheless, I would argue that it is, and always will be, racism, white-against-black racism, simply because it is discrimination against another person on the grounds of race, regardless of the balance of power at society level at any given time.

Put simply, racism does exist at an individual level. Moreover, there are always smaller communities within society at large in which the overarching racial power hierarchy is flipped. Which grouping then to choose as significant?

Another example would be the grooming gangs in the UK mentioned earlier in this thread, the men being mainly - but not exclusively - of Pakistani origin. The majority of victims have been white girls but girls of African heritage have also been targeted and subjected to abuse. Clearly there is misogyny in evidence here but also, I would argue, racism. From their own words, the men involved showed that they did not respect girls who came from ethnic backgrounds other than their own. (I should add that these men have been roundly condemned by people within their own ethnic communities.)

It would be wrong to say that the black girls who suffered at the hands of these men were not victims of racism, simply because the men were mainly non-white. And it would be wrong to say that the white girls who suffered were not victims of racism because they happen to share a heritage with the privileged white majority.

I hope these scenarios might highlight some of the complexities arising from restricting the use of the word racism. In my opinion, this isn’t ‘whataboutery’ and I hope, and trust, that taking time to examine semantics does not detract from the more pressing and heartbreaking situation in the States right now.

We need to keep language flexible to allow all sorts of complicated circumstances to be described, and not to wipe out the possibility of even thinking about certain human experiences by ring fencing the language that would naturally encapsulate those experiences.

If languages becomes impoverished and circumscribed, thoughts are also impoverished and circumscribed.

In the words of George Orwell:

Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thought-crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten. . . . The process will still be continuing long after you and I are dead. Every year fewer and fewer words, and the range of consciousness always a little smaller.

WhoAteAllTheWotsits · 04/06/2020 13:04

It may be racist, or perhaps more likely xenophobia. You don’t seem to have an understanding of what has happened in history to get us where we are now.

The fact that you have the ability to say “I’m white and I was racially abused’ in absolute horror, What you are really saying is “how dare those black/Muslim/whatever people say those things to me! Don’t they know who they are?! And I’m white, how dare they be racist towards my superior skin colour!”

There’s your white privilege.

OchonAgusOchonO · 04/06/2020 13:06

@Mittens030869 - But I still wouldn't technically call it racism, because the perpetrators were also white.

The equality act defines racism so that it includes nationality. In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality.

So yes, it's racism.

NotNowPlzz · 04/06/2020 13:07

@ShutUpaYourFace

As a white person, what can I do? What can I do to make things better? Talking about things that happened in the past 400 years is not going to solve what happens now.

It's actually really important to learn the history that brought us to where we are now. Read more and watch more documentaries.

I keep being told I have white privilege, I agree, but what am I supposed to do?
Use your voice to advocate for black lives.

I can't change the colour of my skin or walk in anyone else's shoes. My children are taught to respect others and to treat everyone as they wish to be treated themselves. What else can I do
Educate yourself in depth about the history and current issues.

AvranaKernsBestSpider · 04/06/2020 13:07

So yes I'm white and have experienced racism. Is it on par with with what black and other ethnic minorities experience ? no

I think this is a really important point. White people do get comments/situations like this, and it is despicable, but it does not and can not compare to daily, constant micro aggressions and overt aggressions that black people can face.

I could also say something about people on this thread who have blithely stated “I once got called..” “A black man once ...” “ Once , a black woman refused to...”

Once
That’s proving the point that op is trying to make.

LydiaDusbyn · 04/06/2020 13:08

"What you are really saying is “how dare those black/Muslim/whatever people say those things to me! Don’t they know who they are?! And I’m white, how dare they be racist towards my superior skin colour!”

There’s your white privilege."

And what privilege do you have to have to be able to SHOVE those words into someone elses mouth when they didn't say them?

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