Why was I BU? Race related.

[asixthofafathom]

I know I was BU and I am sorry about it, but I don't understand.

I have a black friend who is really articulate and passionate and posts a lot on social media about race - the perfect person, I thought, to ask what to read and what not to read at the moment, so as to avoid stuff that is inaccurate and offensive and hear only the authentic voice of those being oppressed.

She went ballistic and unfriended me, then proceeded to rant publicly about how offensive, selfish and insensitive my request was. Her friends chimed in and started calling me names.

I accept that I was wrong. I know it was poor timing, she doesn't owe me anything and it's not her job to educate me. But I genuinely just wanted to learn and understand and show willingness to listen rather than just assume that I understand an experience that I don't share.

Why was I so wrong to ask? Please don't bite my head off (unless I deserve it), I genuinely meant well and was trying to show respect, and now I feel awful.

You say you wanted to "show willingness to listen", but what you actually showed her is that you have ignored everything she's previously said. She's posts about race - you could have started by listening to her and following up on things she shares without making it all about you.

This post is so obviously racist bait though.

I cringed a little when I read that opening post. I am sure you understand now why having read these posts.

SoVeryLost

You are creating a whole heap of circumstances around the OP and her friend that we just don't know.

I am interested in football, and if I want other people to be interested in football, I can try and spark a conversation, but if they don't want to know then that's that. If one day they suddenly develop an interest in football, is it grown up to say "well, I tried to talk about it to you before, but you weren't interested, so I'm not doing it on your terms, and also I'm going to let everyone else in our shared circle know that you are some sort of fraudulent fan" ?

Or would it be better to go "great, told you it was interesting, better late than never, let's share this together" (because through sharing we can build bridges) ?

I think another thing is you're essentially asking your friend to provide evidence of racism as if you don't believe it, or have doubts.
When I've ended up in mini debates with men about the sexism debate and domestic violence, they always ask me to provide them with evidence and even if I do, they find a way to dispute it. Your OP comes across a bit like that

@Leflic

I am a black woman. I’m also articulate, well educated and extremely successful. It is not my job to educate white people about the challenges I encounter every day as a black woman.

You are an absolute minority in my part of the world. I know of no black females in my bit of rural England. Best guess is you have no knowledge of farming. So why would I know any more about your struggles than ours with irrigation, crop pricing or rural poverty

All issues effect us both. Both need to understand the issues of the other.

I'm a city girl and know very little of farming and what I do know is from my time dating a chap who'd grown up on farms however, I can use google to find out some information and if I wanted to learn more I would go with the information I had found out and ask to learn more from a foundation. Ignorance is not an excuse. I also think its a little crass to compare farming with being more likely to be stopped and searched, more likely to be excluded at school, 5x more likely to die in child birth, it being automatically assumed you are a criminal or know criminals (seriously a conversation a friend has had with too many people, she is the least likely person to be involved with criminality) etc...

Why do posters keep saying "it's not her job to educate you" when actually OP asked for a few pointers on how best to educate herself?

That. OP didn't ask her friend to educate her. She asked for a couple of book recommendations, which as her friend posts a lot about race and OP trusts her, seems, under normal circumstances, a reasonable thing to ask.

I appreciate that the friend will be feeling very emotional right now, but unless the OP asked in some horrifically tactless way, the friend's reaction seems extremely over the top.

I appreciate that

I think Leflic makes an interesting point. I know very little about the realities of farming, or the struggles and suicide rates.
Why should someone bother to be involved, want to know more and be concerned about the reliability of sources of information? Especially if it is a minefield that blows up in your ignorant face.
It’s much easier and safer to focus on those issues that only affect you, and if your initial efforts are harshly rebuffed, then why not say ‘Fuck it, not my problem’?

Sloppy editing. Ignore the last "I appreciate that" at the end of my post

I think her response to you was pretty harsh to be honest. I don't think you did anything wrong.

The experiences of BAME people in the UK is also very different to that of POC in the USA.
Read up on the Jim Crow laws, on segregation, on shoebox lunches, on lynching in the 20C, prison populations, deaths at the hands of police and a hundred other topics, and you’ll still only be scratching the surface of legalised, enforced racism in the US.
Racism is a huge issue here, but the origins and interpretations are different.

I might be missing something, but surely the point of posting political views is to educate people. If you don’t want to share your perspective then don’t publicly air your views then get shitty when people want to discuss them.

Yep.
This woman seems to spend a lot of her time trying to educate people - but only on her terms.
It's odd that she doesn't see the OP asking for recommendations, as a sign that her previous posts have been successful. That she actually got someone to care and to respect her opinion.

Yes, going up to a random black friend to be educated would be offensive. But of this friend is an online activist, surely she's out to educate?

@BrainFart

SoVeryLost

You are creating a whole heap of circumstances around the OP and her friend that we just don't know.

I am interested in football, and if I want other people to be interested in football, I can try and spark a conversation, but if they don't want to know then that's that. If one day they suddenly develop an interest in football, is it grown up to say "well, I tried to talk about it to you before, but you weren't interested, so I'm not doing it on your terms, and also I'm going to let everyone else in our shared circle know that you are some sort of fraudulent fan" ?

Or would it be better to go "great, told you it was interesting, better late than never, let's share this together" (because through sharing we can build bridges) ?

My point is that we don't know the circumstances... also again its crass to use football as an example. This is real life for her friend, read my previous post about what affect this has on peoples everyday life. I reached out to a friend to make she was ok, as she'd gone quiet and she has family out stateside. She didn't lose her shit with me, she thanked me and posted a couple of links that I might be interested in so I could learn more. Notice the difference in the approach?

Because it’s not up to BAME people to educate whites people whenever they feel like it.

Problem is, not all BAME people agree. I saw a thread earlier saying that white people should never compliment black people by saying that they are articulate. One woman asked what she should say instead to her articulate black colleague and somebody responded, 'you should ask your black colleague how they want to be complimented' - i.e. be educated by your black colleague.

So it's not simple is it?

Is your average well educated British woman/ feminist really so crushed by the patriarchy that she can’t spend two minutes typing out a couple of decent book suggestions without getting “emotionally drained” and “exhausted”?

It is draining when 1) it happens continually, and 2) the information is out there, easily available at the fingertips of the person who allegedly wants it.

The problem with people asking those experiencing oppression to do the legwork or finding resources for them is that it doesn’t seem sincere. The OP of this post is clearly a troll dangling bait for racists, but even if they were genuine - are they seriously suggesting they couldn’t google ‘how to be a white ally’ and find some sources for themselves? Of course not. But what they actually want is acknowledgment from a black person that they’re doing their bit. It’s less about actually doing the right thing and more about being seen to do the right thing (and being rewarded for that).

The other important dimension of this is that it puts responsibility on the oppressed person. It’s as if you’re saying ‘it’s not my fault I don’t understand this - it’s just that black people haven’t pointed me in the direction of the right resources.’ The reality is that black people have spent decades doing the intensive emotional labour of producing books, articles, films, tv programmes, music, artwork, protests, NPOs, charities, political campaigns and educational movements conveying exactly how they are being oppressed and exactly what white people should be doing about it. It is simply implausible to pretend that one has no way of accessing those resources without one’s black friend spoon feeding them to one. It’s lazy, disingenuous and insensitive.

@BrainFart

How is it real life for her friend ? We know nothing about her friend. It is only real life for her friend if she has been close to police brutality in some manner. Otherwise it is someone wildly over-reacting to a request from a friend for advice on where to get the best information about race relations.

I don't believe it is crass to use the analogy. You cannot force other people's interests. But if you have an interest and a friend asks you for directions to information about it, it's a dick move to say "you weren't interested before, so fuck you now". How that is supposed to help people who want to to become "allies" is beyond me.

Of course it is real life for her friend. I don't have one single black friend who trusts the police. They may not have experienced police brutality but they have all been profiled. Of course it is crass to compare people's lives being affected and football. Does being a fan of football mean you are 5x more likely to die in childbirth, that you'll be chased out of a play park as a child and called a dirty football fan for no reason? This is about actual lives.

I always find the voting on AIBU so interesting, when compared to the responses.

I saw a thread earlier saying that white people should never compliment black people by saying that they are articulate

I don't understand why this is not an ok compliment😳 Not everyone is articulate enough for it to actually be worthy of compliment. No matter what skin colour. I would be made up if someone told me I am articulate😳 Being well spoken is a skill.

I wonder if it's an American thing FencePainter? There's an explanation in this article here: zora.medium.com/5-phrases-your-black-friend-wishes-you-would-stop-using-c857cd415c5

I can't imagine saying to anybody of any race that they are articulate and having some underlying insult built into that. That's alien to my mind.

II appreciate that the friend will be feeling very emotional right now, but unless the OP asked in some horrifically tactless way, the friend's reaction seems extremely over the top.

That's the thing: WE DON'T BLOODY KNOW HOW OP PHRASED IT!

^I can’t count the number of times people have told me this. Even though I was born in the United States, speak two languages fluently, and was a statewide speech and debate champion in high school, somehow it still surprises folks that I speak English well and use multisyllabic words.
This statement signals a longstanding tradition of using language to reinforce racial hierarchy. In 1851, Sojourner Truth gave her now-famous “Ain’t I a Woman?” speech at the National Women’s Rights Convention held in Akron, Ohio.^

@YourVagesty (Awesome nick btw) thanks. Probably from the bit above. I would never think it would have racial undertone. What she names is actually why people compliment her. She is obviously very articulate compare to other native speakers🤷🏻 I compliment one of my white friends on her English often because it's just so wonderful (she is native English speaker), makes me bit confused that I should actually NOT compliment someone for it just because their skin colour is different. It's a bloody great skill.

Fucking hell. OP was trying to get some pointers on educating herself, from someone she obviously thought was a friend. I would ask any of my friends advice on anything they knew more about than I did. Her intentions were good, if she didn't approach it in the right way (providing it wasn't actually offensive) surely any regular person would explain how she could have approached it better or given her some pointers. She's clearly trying not to offend anybody. There's a lot of misinformation about, not a bad thing to try and avoid it!

If this friend is an online activist, surely she's out to educate?

You'd think so wouldn't you? And after all, OP didn't even ask her for direct education - she simply asked for some pointers so that she could educate herself
Absolutely fair enough if the "friend" didn't want to do it, but why not just refuse? Why was it necessary to slate OP all over social media and encourage nasty comments?

I always find the voting on AIBU so interesting, when compared to the responses

Yes, I mentioned this earlier and since then the vote's swung even further towards YANBU. It's really quite curious how, even if the OP's well intentioned, the same posters so often arrive to put the boot in - usually while professing to oppose hatred

Aww OP how nasty of her to then slate you on her social media. Doesn't matter the colour of her, she doesn't sound like a very nice person, not even mentioning 'being a friend'.
I get what everyone is saying that there is a lot of information out there and that is not a friend's job to educate her... Ok but OP didn't ask to educate her and give her lessons for fs, she asked for recommendation or websites/books, whatever, a reliable source. I mean she was asking her 'friend', not a random on the street

It also doesn’t sound like op was asking for evidence of racism.

Thing is, sometimes racism is so deeply ingrained in social behaviour that it’s not immediately obvious to someone who’s never experienced racism and has been brought up with said behaviours and customs being the norm.

How the hell will society change if one race is fighting for equality but when asked how the other races behaviours should be altered they fly into a rage because it should be obvious.

Yes, it should be obvious but sometimes things need to be spelled out so there’s no room for miscommunication and your message is understood.
If there’s questions about how something disadvantaged or discriminated then answer them. Most people don’t actually think they’re racist and most would be actively upset to think they were.
Educate them, share your opinions and hear theirs. It’s the only way social change will happen.