Why was I BU? Race related.

[asixthofafathom]

I know I was BU and I am sorry about it, but I don't understand.

I have a black friend who is really articulate and passionate and posts a lot on social media about race - the perfect person, I thought, to ask what to read and what not to read at the moment, so as to avoid stuff that is inaccurate and offensive and hear only the authentic voice of those being oppressed.

She went ballistic and unfriended me, then proceeded to rant publicly about how offensive, selfish and insensitive my request was. Her friends chimed in and started calling me names.

I accept that I was wrong. I know it was poor timing, she doesn't owe me anything and it's not her job to educate me. But I genuinely just wanted to learn and understand and show willingness to listen rather than just assume that I understand an experience that I don't share.

Why was I so wrong to ask? Please don't bite my head off (unless I deserve it), I genuinely meant well and was trying to show respect, and now I feel awful.

So sad to see the continuing suggestions of bad faith though, from suggestions that OP deliberately used "a racist narrative" to "stop lying" and much else. Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt and perhaps using a little gentleness towards others during such awful times ... after all, isn't that what most of us would wish for ourselves?

What do you think the OP has done that earns them the right to receive the benefit of the doubt?

@zscaler

So sad to see the continuing suggestions of bad faith though, from suggestions that OP deliberately used "a racist narrative" to "stop lying" and much else. Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt and perhaps using a little gentleness towards others during such awful times ... after all, isn't that what most of us would wish for ourselves?

What do you think the OP has done that earns them the right to receive the benefit of the doubt?

What do you think the OP has done that earns them the right to receive the benefit of the doubt?

Haha, it's almost satire. How about affording the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Can you provide some justification for why the OP doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt ?

Can you provide some justification for why the OP doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt?

Because they asked a racially charged question illustrative of an offensive racial stereotype and then fucked off without engaging with any of the responses.

Interesting question, zscaler, especially in that you referred to "earning" the benefit of the doubt. You see, I don't regard that myself as something to earn; rather, I try to think the best of people and assume good faith unless proved otherwise

All we've actually been told is that OP approached a black activist friend for suggestions on how to educate herself on a very difficult subject. She might have asked in a perfectly reasonable way or she might have behaved in a manner which put her friend's back up - we simply don't know because, for whatever reason, she's not been back to clarify

That being so we can either take her initial word for it, or pile in with our own prejudices to call her a liar, a provocateur and worse
Personally I'd rather think positively

Interesting question, zscaler, especially in that you referred to "earning" the benefit of the doubt. You see, I don't regard that myself as something to earn; rather, I try to think the best of people and assume good faith unless proved otherwise

Fine - you have lower standards for trust than I do. For me, if someone’s post includes a harmful racial stereotype and they show no signs of engaging with the thread, they have ‘proven otherwise’ in respect of whether or not they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps you’re more willing to let people off the hook for behaviour like that. That’s your choice, but I don’t consider it a virtue myself.

Perhaps you’re more willing to let people off the hook for behaviour like that

I doubt it; if OP had used this to stereotype an entire group I'd be the first to report it - and have, when it's happened before
Nobody disputes that stereotypes can be dangerous, but in this particular case OP referenced the behaviour of just one person whose subsequent choice to slam her on social media may or may not suggest that she can be unduly aggressive

It's a sad fact that no race is exempt from containing a few very unpleasant folk. We can't know who this applies to here - or even if it does - but overall I'd suggest the real mistake is to use baseless assumptions to damn a whole group of people for the actions of just one

How are earth are white people supposed to recount a story in which a black woman gets angry then ? Are they supposed to pretend it didn't happen ? Or should we just assume that every single such account is bullshit and that black women never get angry ? The OP, apparently doesn't have a history for being a troll, and has been confirmed by MN as a long-time poster. Perhaps they've built up that posting history to allow themselves to pass under the radar for when they do want to post a bullshit story to cause tension, but again, benefit of the doubt suggests not.

Nobody disputes that stereotypes can be dangerous, but in this particular case OP referenced the behaviour of just one person whose subsequent choice to slam her on social media may or may not suggest that she can be unduly aggressive

So you’re really willing to take entirely at face value the OP’s story that they politely asked a question and received a load of aggressive abuse back? Are you totally oblivious to the racial ‘aggressive black woman’ stereotype?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-45476500

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24188294/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2019/05/31/overcoming-the-angry-black-woman-stereotype/amp/

Now you can bend over backwards to profess that despite the above, you still believe the OP deserves the benefit of the doubt. But you should ask yourself why you aren’t giving OP’s friend the benefit of the doubt too, and wondering whether she was actually that aggressive and unreasonable, or whether OP (assuming for a moment this story is real) might have exaggerated the reaction because they’re feeling defensive or want to construct a particular narrative.

Too often, people behaving in covertly racist ways get given the benefit of the doubt. Too often we fail to challenge behaviour because it’s not explicitly racist, and because we find it easier and more comfortable to assume good intent, even when the person’s behaviour doesn’t merit it. But doing so directly benefits and emboldens racists to the direct harm of black people. It’s really important not to underestimate that.

@BrainFart from what I gather from this thread, we shouldn't have this issue because we shouldn't be asking anything, hence not making anyone angry🤔

But you should ask yourself why you aren’t giving OP’s friend the benefit of the doubt too

You might want to read my post again, zscaler; I said the reported criticism on social media "may or may not suggest that she can be unduly aggressive" because I obviously can't know - hence why I'd give her too the benefit of the doubt

And no, I'm not at all oblivious to the ‘aggressive black woman’ stereotype, which is why I remarked on it in my PP

Hi everyone, I haven't disappeared but I haven't read your replies yet either. Felt really upset today after losing a friend, and have been reading up on the current situation. Just wanted to check in and say thank you for responding and I will read everything soon.

Puzzledandpissedoff - I've just realised I missed a critical word off - when I said OP hadn't posted, I meant she hadn't posted anything since on any threads and was possibly too worried about posting the wrong thing. I was actually a bit concerned that some of the harsher responses on here combined with some possible escalation on more identifiable social media (Facebook?) were too much for her.

OP - glad you're back.

I meant she hadn't posted anything since on any threads

I see what you mean, FlatCheese, and here's another one glad to see OP back
Hopefully she might choose to share a little more of what was said so we can all gain a better understanding ...

@Sussed

Can't seem to quote but I think *@Nonotthatdr nails it with "A friend posted a list of things not to say, I don't know what I should say...but then if I don't say anything, I'm wrong". THIS. There are posts literally everywhere atm saying if you are white and say nothing, your silence is violence. And yet, it's incredibly dangerous to try and say anything - as the OP discovered- as everything said by 'a privileged little white person' is automatically wrong because there is absolutely no way we can inherently understand or know, yet there is no correct way of speaking out or engaging. As @AutoCarrot* keeps saying and being ignored - why did everyone just assume the OP is white? She could be Asian, black, or White Jewish...anything. And if she were an EM, does that change things? Is it more acceptable to be ignorant, to try to engage if you are a minority group? Whereas if you are white, at the moment you just have to accept that you must not engage because it is insensitive and you are too privileged to ever understand. You must educate your children because that is your duty, but without discussion with POC, because that will be taken wrongly, so they can only be educated from a white perspective. And whatever you try to do and whatever interest you take, you must accept that you are guilty of White Privilege by birth and must take that graciously as black people have lived with the oppression for their skin colour for so long. It's like some sort of overdue prejudice, if you like. I struggle to see how this logic is helping??

I actually think you are purposely misunderstanding that quote. Do you stand by why people say racist things? Thats what people mean by your silence is violence. It's easy to say oh I'd like some book recommendations. It's about actually calling out your friends, relatives, yourself when something racist is said or a person is unfairly treated.

@zscaler

Can you provide some justification for why the OP doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt?

Because they asked a racially charged question illustrative of an offensive racial stereotype and then fucked off without engaging with any of the responses.

This in spades, yet @mnhq lets it stand. It's filling up with racists and racist apologists. These threads are so indicative of the hostile environment that black people live in day to day. Yet still you still want them to serve you with information, because you can't be bothered to use google. My social media was full of book recommendations yesterday, why did OP need private tuition from a 'friend'?

@Nonottthatdr

"I think your probably going to think that I am fundamentally racist and so privileged that I am just defending my inbuilt prejudices, and I should never weigh in on things I can’t understand"

I don't think this at all. I think you meant one thing and worded it badly so it came out to mean something else. That is what I'm calling you out on. As a white person you need to re-evaluate your wording. Because words are powerful.

""as a white women I just can’t understand how my black (and to some extent Asian) friends and family feel. I cannot comprehend their lived experience." *

^this is what you said

"as a white women I just can’t understand how my black (and also Asian/Hispanic/any other race) friends and family feel. I cannot comprehend their lived experience." *

^this is what you should have said

It's subtle differences but they really do make a difference. Like I said, by saying you some extent' you imply that you partly do understand how asian people feel. And as someone who has never faced oppression for their race but can not understand it at all.

When we let casual racism slip through the net, even if it is a genuine mistake, we are condoning it.

I don't think you are racist but I think your comment was, not on purpose, but with bad wording. We need to educate about this just as much as any type of racism in order to truly eradicate racism.

Like I said, by saying you some extent' you imply that you partly do understand how asian people feel.

It actually reads completely differently. It reads as that Asians and black people feel it differently. Black strongly. And I have seen this around on SM in last few days said to or about Asian people. "You still don't understand how does it feel for us black people".
So black people feel it and to some extent asians too.

Nothing racist about that Maybe people should stop coming up with new ways and reasons to call someone racist or that they say racist things...

@TheFencePainter

Are you Asian? Black? Any eithnic minority? Or white?

I'm not 'coming up with new ways and reasons to call someone racist' but as an Asian woman I have just as much right to call out perceived racism against my community as black people do against theirs.

I absolutely do not claim to feel impacted by the death of George Floyd as strongly as black people do.

I do however feel impacted by racism, casual and accidental as well as directed, as strongly as black people do.

I am just as impacted by white privilege as black people are and continue to call it out, against both mine and other races.

Maybe people should stop trying to silence ethnic minorities from educating white people on how their words effect them even if those white people mean no harm by those words, as I have acknowledged @Notthatdr did.

Personally, I don’t see the problem unless the question was offensive/racist.

My DH is black, his family are black & mixed race. His mum has helped me with DS hair, helped with how to cook Caribbean dishes, his uncle gives me cooking tips & special ingredients. I can’t see the problem unless it was offensive/racist.

But you misinterpreted her words. That's what I had a problem with... Which I quite clearly said. Maybe not that clearly. Apologies then.

Pp did not say she understands how her Asian friends feel, as you said. Not even to some extent. She said she can't understand how they feel.
The " to some extent" was about their feelings not about her understanding it. I think it's pretty unfair telling someone what they are saying is racist when you actually did not understand what they are saying.

Also Op, you said you were then added to a group of friends who then started verbally abusing you. This is wrong! If you have a problem with someone just call it out one to one. I don’t see why she’d do that

Problem is that OP says her friend d posts all the time about the issues. So why wouldnt OP start reading those posts first, her friend would be posting and referring to the same stuff she would have to give to her in private.

I would be pretty pissed off too if a friend came to me asking for recommendations and think why the hell haven't they been reading what I've been posting.

I'm not going to comment on how her friend reacted only to say I'm not that surprised about the reaction.

Also Op, you said you were then added to a group of friends who then started verbally abusing you.

Where did OP say that? OP didn’t say that they private messaged this friend only that they asked her questions because this friend posts a lot about this subject. If this was done on Facebook, then OP likely asked questions on one of this friend’s post which could only be seen by this friend’s friends list which would make it easy for that friend’s other friends to comment on it.

My social media was full of book recommendations yesterday, why did OP need private tuition from a 'friend'?

This is a really good point. I have seen book recommendations, interviews and speeches of black people talking about their experiences, etc about this subject all over social media and even book recommendations on here so the information has been more than readily available without the necessity to ask. Again, OP could have asked this friend questions ages ago before this all happened considering OP herself said this friend posted about it often. If this friend hadn’t, I doubt the OP would have thought to ask her in the first place.

I don’t agree with the friend ranting about it nor how her other friends chimed in (again, this friend has no control on what others say). I would bet that OP possibly didn’t come off as genuine as they thought they did and we also don’t know how or what OP asked or how they phrased it.

@pheonixrosehere

Also Op, you said you were then added to a group of friends who then started verbally abusing you.

^^ ahh, I see! I saw this below, & got it wrong. It says “ranted publicly” so I can only assume the message was shared, when it was necessary, she could have just said “you’ve offended me, I’d rather not educate you”

From Op -
She went ballistic and unfriended me, then proceeded to rant publicly about how offensive, selfish and insensitive my request was. Her friends chimed in and started calling me names.

^^ wasn’t necessary