Why was I BU? Race related.

[asixthofafathom]

I know I was BU and I am sorry about it, but I don't understand.

I have a black friend who is really articulate and passionate and posts a lot on social media about race - the perfect person, I thought, to ask what to read and what not to read at the moment, so as to avoid stuff that is inaccurate and offensive and hear only the authentic voice of those being oppressed.

She went ballistic and unfriended me, then proceeded to rant publicly about how offensive, selfish and insensitive my request was. Her friends chimed in and started calling me names.

I accept that I was wrong. I know it was poor timing, she doesn't owe me anything and it's not her job to educate me. But I genuinely just wanted to learn and understand and show willingness to listen rather than just assume that I understand an experience that I don't share.

Why was I so wrong to ask? Please don't bite my head off (unless I deserve it), I genuinely meant well and was trying to show respect, and now I feel awful.

*I think this thread has demonstrated succinctly why some white people can be reluctant to engage on the issue of race and racism.

Even you’ve genuinely tried to do the right thing, having taken the time to think about what you’re doing/saying/asking, and even if you’re actually doing what someone involved in the debate has asked or recommended you to do, if someone else seems that you’ve done the wrong thing then you risk being denounced as a tone-deaf, thoughtless racist and shamed accordingly.* Better put than i did, and then come the cries of why is everyone silent 🙄, can't have it both ways.

If your desire to educate yourself about racism and be a good ally is dependent on black people being nice to you, you do not mean well.
The 'friend' incited a cruel pile on thats not ok either, its not how adults behave, In the past i had to go into institutions involved in Adult LD care, if i behaved like that everytime someone asked us for resources we'd have been fired.

One black person does not speak for all of us seems to be unfortunately necessary to have to say. I am happy to educate any race of friends who ask me, others are not and that is ok too and I don’t blame them. It’s tiring, it’s uncomfortable, and sometimes you want to bang your head against the wall with what you’re asked.

I do think the OP was being unreasonable on the grounds that they said that this person posts a lot on her social media about this subject and her experiences. If that is really the case, the OP could have taken the time before all this to educate themselves. By asking now, it seems they wasn’t really paying attention beforehand and now that it is talked about by everyone they want their friend to help educate them. That would annoy or upset anyone that is as passionate as this friend is considering this very subject deals with her life. OP has a willingness to learn now which sounds like they didn’t have one before. I bet if OP had shown an interest beforehand, instead of noticing that their friend was vocal about this subject, they wouldn’t have gotten the response they received or better yet had to ask to be educated in the first place.

In the past i had to go into institutions involved in Adult LD care, if i behaved like that everytime someone asked us for resources we'd have been fired

Maybe because that’s your job and therefore a completely incomparable situation...?

I don’t agree with inciting a pile on, but I think it’s reasonable that OP’s imaginary and racially stereotyped friend was angry given that OP says she’s already shared multiple posts and was then asked to do even more work by someone who can’t be arsed to put in even a little bit of effort herself at a time of deep trauma for black people.

Well i have a learning disability so its completely comparable sadly, and its why we were there in the first place. theres far too much perfomative tantrums online, i wouldn't engage further with that friend.

Well i have a learning disability so its completely comparable sadly, and its why we were there in the first place.

It’s not comparable because if it is your job to provide resources - and given you said you would be fired for not complying I can only assume it was - then you’re in a totally different position to a black person who receives no recompense of any kind for the work or providing resources to people who could perfectly easily access them themselves.

@bridgetreilly

Perhaps asking a black person who has (presumably) read a lot around the situation could help the white person get the correct information more quickly ?

Why would you assume a black person has read a lot around the situation? Why would the black person need to read in order to know what racism is and how it affects them when they know that from their every day experience?

Because the OP has indicated that her friend is engaged on social media about matters of racial politics. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the friend thus would have read about it a lot more than a white person who is looking for good sources of information ?

Yanbu OP

I have tried time and time again to educate myself about this, only to be frequently "told off" in quite a patronising way over and over by black friends that I'm apparently still not finding anything presenting the true/authentic perspective they feel is appropriate.

If I ask them to recommend anything they think is good & worth a read, this is also wrong apparently. I have concluded that they mainly want to tell me that I will never/can never understand. I agree with this (I'm not stood in their shoes, how can I possibly understand). But they don't seem to want to me to be able to emphasise and try to educate myself. Sadly I think there are some who simply want to tell me off a lot for being white.

So i just quietly continue to try and educate myself and avoid talking about it with some people.

All I can learn from reading this is that the next time a friend asks for information about something I'm interested in or that affects me, it's reasonable behaviour to block them on social media and allow my other friends to shit on them.

All I can learn from reading this is that the next time a friend asks for information about something I'm interested in or that affects me, it's reasonable behaviour to block them on social media and allow my other friends to shit on them.

Um.. many people disagreed with that part.

I find it interesting though OP has not only not come back, but didn’t say if she had asked anything about this subject to this friend beforehand. I bet that this “friend” is more of an acquaintance than an actual friend and they aren’t close whatsoever. If that were the case, I highly doubt this friend would have just unfriended her and bashed her afterwards all over her social media feed.

Maybe it’s ‘quicker’ to ask a black person to do this work for you. Maybe it’s easier for you. But why does that mean it’s something you’re entitled to?

Where has anyone said OP was entitled to help? They've wondered if this lady might have wanted to share some sources because she's apparently an activist and presumably well informed on the subject, but that's quite a distance from suggesting entitlement

And why assume bad faith with sarcastic comments about an "imaginary" friend and accusations of a racist agenda? We may never know how OP phrased her question since (unsurprisingly) she's not been back, but is it really necessary to keep picking at someone on the basis of so little?
We're all human and sometimes we'll get it right and sometimes get it wrong, but I'm just curious why OP's received quite such a pile on

@Nonotthatdr
*
"as a white women I just can’t understand how my black (and to some extent Asian) friends and family feel. I cannot comprehend their lived experience." *

Not 'some extent', you can't understand how your Asian friends feel anymore than you black friends.

To assume you can is no less racist than assuming you can understand the experience of black people.

'oi Morris, remember you were saying all that stuff about feminism the other night? I've been thinking about it and I want to get involved. Who was it on twitter again? And which newspaper carries sympathetic coverage? Any other recommendations? Jackie was asking too. Cheers'

1. 'Mate I'm busy, message ya later.'

2. 'Yip, it was ThisWoman on twitter, That Book on amazon, oh and have you seen ThisShow on Netflix? It's got a few ropy bits but gets some really good points across'

3. omg what am I your fkin secretary? Find out for yourself. I'm done with you.

Where has anyone said OP was entitled to help? They've wondered if this lady might have wanted to share some sources because she's apparently an activist and presumably well informed on the subject, but that's quite a distance from suggesting entitlement

Asking other people to do work for you that you’re perfectly capable of doing yourself just because it would be easier for you IS entitlement.

And why assume bad faith with sarcastic comments about an "imaginary" friend and accusations of a racist agenda?

Because OP dropped a controversial question into a forum known for having a wealth of racist posters. Worse, that question was framed perfectly in line with an age old racist narrative - ‘innocent, polite and well-intentioned white person asks question of black woman, black woman reacts aggressively in response’.

That and the fact that the OP hasn’t returned to respond to any of the points (either in favour and against her) is, in my view, the final confirmation of bad faith on their part.

@changeitupagain- You misunderstood me, I wasn’t trying to say that I can understand how Asian people feel but that this particular race crisis has appears to affect and cause distress to black people more than Asian people - right now the focus is on racism aimed at the black community and the poor treatment of this so right now I I am concerned with the perceptions and feelings of the black community more than the Asian one (I know there not massive holomoglus groups and the above isn’t worded right, but I hope you see I’m not trying to imagine I know how anyone feels, if I was doing that however I would be more concerned with imaging how a black person felt at the moment rather than how an Asian person felt. At the moment

I don't think the example of asking someone that works in a supermarket what time it closes rather than googling is a good one. It's asking them one thing that they would give a simple one or two worded answer to.

Asking someone to reiterate a whole issue and basically educate someone on it is asking a lot. Plenty of information was posted by the OP's friend by the sounds of things so being asked might have come across more like "I still don't understand, you need to make me understand". That isn't her job to do and the friend doesn't need to make people understand.

The reaction of bad mouthing and causing a scene about it is over the top though. She's probably just fed up. We can all get like that when we're fed up

Quick question, has OP been seen since first posting about the ‘black friend’ she was so concerned with? She seemed desperate to understand if she had been in the wrong? Has she managed to reconcile her actions based on everyone’s helpful responses? Desperately need answers, can’t sleep until I know this has been resolved.

OP dropped a controversial question into a forum known for having a wealth of racist posters. Worse, that question was framed perfectly in line with an age old racist narrative - ‘innocent, polite and well-intentioned white person asks question of black woman, black woman reacts aggressively in response’.

Exactly this.

@Nonotthatdr

No I misunderstood nothing, if that's what you meant that's fine but you worded it incorrectly in your first post.

If you say you can't understand 'to some extent' you directly imply that you do understand some of it. I am telling you that you as a white woman understand none of it and your wording was poor and incorrect.

I'm glad you have clarified but I am still calling you out for your incorrect wording because what you first said did mean something different and that something was incorrect and racist.

Wait. Is it racist to say you somewhat understand how do people who are subjected to racism feel if you are white?

@changeitupagain

On second thoughts maybe I misunderstood you.

I was saying that I cannot understand BAME people’s lives experience of racism and the filter than that brings to many everyday situations not that I cannot ever attempt to understand how a BAME person may ever feel about anything ever.

Clearly no one can every know exactly what someone else thinks because we’re not mind readers but in our day to day lives of course we try to imagine ourselves in our friends and families shoes, to think about their opinions and what they may be experiencing - that is just part of being a parents, wife, child, friend etc.....I’m not sure it’s correct that I should not attempt to understand my friends and families worldview or how would I make connections to them

(And so I don’t get a drip feed accusation my daughter is mixed race and 3yrs old, I spend a lot of my time trying to figure out how she thinks and feels about stuff like all parents of tantrum prone preschoolers, I also spend a fair bit of time trying to understand and comprehend my husband because that’s part of marriage - I can’t know what it’s like to be him and if he tells me something is so because of his race I don’t question him, same as if I tell him something is so because our daughter is female like me, he dosent question that, but we do both do our best to understand the others perspective and realise when race is playing a factor - interestingly we have more issues with class and politics than race in our relationship

@changeitupagain

Sorry we cross posted.

I am sorry that you felt what I said was wrong and racist , that was not my intention and I am sorry to have upset you.

I do not believe that I can understand what it feels like to be BAME and experience racism, and how that colours (no pun I can’t think of a better word) many/all life experiences. That is white privilege I am sure.

However I can’t not try and understand how my family feel, their my family I care very much about how they feel, so I have to try and understand even if we sometimes get it wrong. As a mother I have to try and understand the confused messed up world that my daughter will inhabit and since she is neither of my race or my husbands but her own mix neither of us can fully guide her in that process but we do both need to try and comprehend.

I think your probably going to think that I am fundamentally racist and so privileged that I am just defending my inbuilt prejudices, and I should never weigh in on things I can’t understand. I have faced that I do have prejudices based on race that I can’t fully remove, but the daily reality of being in a mixed race and mixed cultural marriage with a mixed race kid means that you have so do a lot of daily weighing up between different cultures - what languages do we speak at home, what nationality do we claim for our daughter, what festivals do we celebrate? Everything can be fraught - Im v fair, dad is very dark, kid looks like she is from South America and her hair type is neither of ours - just trying to find a hairdresser and products for her has had me called all sorts of names. The different options on if it was racist for me to wear or not wear a bindi To temple are an ongoing fun

However this Current awfulness dosent have anything to do with me or even my little family so apologies for the total these hijack

According to Advanced Search, (unless she's namechanged) OP hasn't been on any threads. From her first post, she was being called names by her friends and their friends on social media. I wouldn't be surprised if she's disappeared for a while.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

I have tried time and time again to educate myself about this, only to be frequently "told off" in quite a patronising way over and over by black friends that I'm apparently still not finding anything presenting the true/authentic perspective they feel is appropriate

Here we go again with the ‘black friends’ bull shit. The way you describe them, why would you have them as friends. Stop lying

According to Advanced Search, (unless she's namechanged) OP hasn't been on any threads

I think someone said upthread that MNHQ had got back to them to say OP's a longstanding poster - which would rather suggest a namechange

So sad to see the continuing suggestions of bad faith though, from suggestions that OP deliberately used "a racist narrative" to "stop lying" and much else. Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt and perhaps using a little gentleness towards others during such awful times ... after all, isn't that what most of us would wish for ourselves?