Why was I BU? Race related.

[asixthofafathom]

I know I was BU and I am sorry about it, but I don't understand.

I have a black friend who is really articulate and passionate and posts a lot on social media about race - the perfect person, I thought, to ask what to read and what not to read at the moment, so as to avoid stuff that is inaccurate and offensive and hear only the authentic voice of those being oppressed.

She went ballistic and unfriended me, then proceeded to rant publicly about how offensive, selfish and insensitive my request was. Her friends chimed in and started calling me names.

I accept that I was wrong. I know it was poor timing, she doesn't owe me anything and it's not her job to educate me. But I genuinely just wanted to learn and understand and show willingness to listen rather than just assume that I understand an experience that I don't share.

Why was I so wrong to ask? Please don't bite my head off (unless I deserve it), I genuinely meant well and was trying to show respect, and now I feel awful.

sorry:

"When we are capable of asking why is it that people don't feel they are responsible for educating us,..."
Rather

At this time, the only thing that is really acceptable is to show anger at what is going on

Really? Isn't it the case that anger - while understandable - will only get you so far?
Personally I'd rather use what's happened to try for a deeper understanding, to learn and to do better in future

What really worries me about these kind of derision-filled threads is that there'll be some who'll think "there's just no point; whatever I do will be wrong, so why even bother?". It might not be right to think like that but some may think it just the same and I'm not sure how that helps

I'm" (personally) not acting like anything, actually. I was trying to represent a generalised voice of the difficulty here, for the OP and others, as I see it

My mistake - it’s not always obvious that someone is playing devil’s advocate when they appear to be sincere.

Assume then that I mean the general ‘you’ and my comment still stands. I’m white, and I think it’s outrageous that people are pretending they need specific input from their black friends to help them understand this issue when there is so much information which is so easily available. Asking black people to do that work for you indicates that you’re much more invested in looking like you’re doing the work than you are in actually doing it (I am using ‘You’ in the general sense here).

@Puzzledandpissedoff yes, precisely. Thank you- that summed it up much more succinctly than I was managing to!

there is so much information which is so easily available

Quite right. But how is a white person supposed to know which is good, accurate information, and which is shite ? Perhaps asking a black person who has (presumably) read a lot around the situation could help the white person get the correct information more quickly ?

As a parallel, someone wanting to learn about the holocaust could start with David Irving's "information" on the subject. I doubt that would help much.

Look at it this way - I find it exhausting and emotionally draining when men demand that I provide them with resources to help them understand sexism when those resources are easily accessible for anyone with google and a modicum of good faith.

There are good resources on anything online, and bad ones. Speaking purely on the issue of feminism, I'd prefer they read the good ones, if I think they are in good faith. And yes I say that as a woman who has experienced male violence on multiple occasions. I know how bad the bad resources are. As a woman who has recently had a miscarriage I would gladly direct someone to a helpful resource, too. I don't think that's a particularly good analogy.

But how is a white person supposed to know which is good, accurate information, and which is shite ? Perhaps asking a black person who has (presumably) read a lot around the situation could help the white person get the correct information more quickly ?

By paying attention and reading all the posts by that person? Maybe?
Again, what the OP did was say to her friend (and yes, I'm making assumptions that the OP is female 😉) that she hasn't really been listening to her, but now would like a private lesson. Because without her friend's individual input how is the OP to learn?

Actually I thought your summary was pretty good, Sussed

On the issue of "read it for yourself", and as BrainFart just said, there's just so much rubbish out there and sifting it from the worthhile isn't easy - especially for white people who'll never experience discrimination in the same way

Despite the Groundhog Day-like cries of "it's not their job to educate you" which ignore the point that's not what OP asked for, I'm still not convinced that asking for pointers is intrinsically a bad thing, and I'll never believe that damning an entire group helps, whether black, white or anything else

I am just glad that my Muslim friends were much more approachable when I was trying to learn about it... As pps said. There is hell of a lot of resources online, but the problem with it is that you need some knowledge already to filter what is a good source and what is not.
Which a novice to the topic often can't.

I am sure I am watched now because I accidentally went on some apparently not ok sites about islam (extremist opinions) before I asked for help

@Lweiji you're assuming that this friend had posted links to books etc. Maybe the OP had been reading her posts, but wanted to get more history or something. And anyway, only hearing one black person's views isn't always the best way to get an overview of the situation. I'm sure we all have friends of our own ethnicities that we wouldn't want speaking for us?

I am just glad that my Muslim friends were much more approachable when I was trying to learn about it... As pps said. There is hell of a lot of resources online, but the problem with it is that you need some knowledge already to filter what is a good source and what is not.
Which a novice to the topic often can't.

Yep. Same here. I worked ina predominantly muslim area, and had to tread lightly in some difficult situations. My Muslim colleagues and clients were always really helpful when I hesitantly asked for their guidance. I learned a lot, and the personal engagement is so much more helpful than reading something that you're not convinced is accurate or relevant to those you're actually working with and for. I never once had an 'it's not my job to help you' response, thanks goodness.

@Ereshkigalangcleg I agree actually. Taking that analogy about male approaching female for recommendations on reading sources regarding sexism, I'd be quite happy to discuss it with them and would be happy to have started a conversation with them. I'd much rather I point them in the right direction than they read something unhelpful.

Same regarding your point re your miscarriage. I've suffered lots of fertility issues and have posted about them regularly. I wouldn't be bothered if someone messaged me to ask about it/what they could read up on to understand.

But again I guess it just goes to show that we are all different, I don't think it's as clear cut as some posters would like to believe though, that is absolutely 100% insensitive and wrong to ask. I think there are lots of people who actually wouldn't mind at all and there will be those that do.

@saraclara yes. It's so much better to get it from the community. There are some pretty dangerous resources masquerading as good ones.

I have a black friend who is really articulate and passionate and posts a lot on social media about race

It's not a big assumption to make that she posted links or references to articles and even books.
And it's an assumption that the OP asked for books.

But it's all in the asking, words and timing.

I bet the OP would have had a different reaction is she had commented about one of her friend's posts before all this and asked what else might she read to learn more about it.

Preferably without "the oppressed" (I'm guessing).

But again I guess it just goes to show that we are all different, I don't think it's as clear cut as some posters would like to believe though, that is absolutely 100% insensitive and wrong to ask. I think there are lots of people who actually wouldn't mind at all and there will be those that do.

YY.

What is it with these threads on race at the moment where an OP posts something and then disappears?

I'd be tempted to annoy her back by replying and telling her that I took her advice, googled about race-related stuff on my own, and decided to join BritainFirst after being impressed by the rather spiffy new blog post they've just published. "They used my favorite typeface and all!" ;)

Then again, I wouldn't have asked such a strange question in the first place.

I think your friend has gone over the top. It’s not like you walked up to a random person on the street and said ‘educate me’ she is a friend who is known to speak out about racial politics. Just like I can imagine asking a friend who knows a lot about feminist politics to point me in the right direction. It could have been the wording you used but any decent person would have just said ‘read this’ or ‘check out this website’ it takes all of three seconds. I think reactions like this add the to ‘white guilt’ say nothing and keep out of it approach most white people have because they are so desperate not to say or do the wrong thing.

Quite right. But how is a white person supposed to know which is good, accurate information, and which is shite ? Perhaps asking a black person who has (presumably) read a lot around the situation could help the white person get the correct information more quickly ?

By using the tools you have at your disposal - your own ability to reflect on sources. Who wrote or produced it? Are they funded by anyone? Are they themselves black? What to other black creators say about it? Where was it published / aired / displayed?

By going to reputable organisations - the NAACP, the Southern Poverty Law Centre, The Innocence Project - and seeing what they are sharing.

By reading online reviews of books from newspapers you trust.

In the case of the OP, she could have started with some of the information her friend had already shared online, if she didn’t trust her own ability to do research.

We should all be asking these questions of everything we read. And the truth is, it’s disingenuous to pretend we are suddenly incapable of finding and evaluating information for ourselves when it comes to racism.

Maybe it’s ‘quicker’ to ask a black person to do this work for you. Maybe it’s easier for you. But why does that mean it’s something you’re entitled to? Black people aren’t born with an innate sense of what information is good and reliable. It’s just as much work for them as it is for white people to identify and evaluate suitable sources of information. When white people say ‘please tell me what I should read’ what they’re actually saying is ‘racism is your problem to fix, so you do the work of finding information for me’.

YABU because the resources are all out there, you are capable yourself of checking legitimacy and trustworthiness, and the BAME community has been dealing with astonishing trauma and do not have the mental energy to suddenly be a teacher - especially when as mentioned above, you are an adult with eyes and brain who can find decent information yourself.

A few tips - find and follow more black and minority people. Listen to what they are saying. Many have links to resources which you can then check.

Many documentaries from legit filmmakers out there

Listen, learn, find, take an active interest, use your own brain

Perhaps asking a black person who has (presumably) read a lot around the situation could help the white person get the correct information more quickly ?

Why would you assume a black person has read a lot around the situation? Why would the black person need to read in order to know what racism is and how it affects them when they know that from their every day experience?

I get that its not up to black people to educate, by going ballistic though all she has succeded in doing is alienating someone who meant well, i dont understand what some people expect to achieve by inciting constant pile ons then complain when white people stay silent because its too risky to try and risk receiving insults, backlash, death threats etc. I wouldn't have apologised after she incited her friends to pile on you and call you names thats not the behaviour of a grown up.

all she has succeded in doing is alienating someone who meant well

If your desire to educate yourself about racism and be a good ally is dependent on black people being nice to you, you do not mean well.