To think the lockdown needs to end now?

[Fr0thandBubble]

I could understand a lockdown being imposed for a few weeks to make sure the NHS was up to capacity, but it’s gone well beyond that. The NHS now has lots of excess capacity and yet here we still are.

I am horrified by what has happened to our civil liberties, what it’s doing to our children’s education, what it’s doing to everyone’s livelihoods and mental health, what it’s doing to the economy, how people are not getting life-saving treatment for things like cancer, etc.

I don’t understand why people aren’t given the right to choose to self-isolate if they need to but for the rest of us to be allowed to get on with our lives and to take responsibility for ourselves.

I don’t understand why people who are not old and don’t have underlying health conditions are acting hysterically and why people have decided it’s OK to police other people’s behaviour and shout at them in the street.

I feel like I’m living in some kind of awful dystopian society.

I realise I’m in the minority here but does anyone agree with me?

@cherryblossommorningstoday how about YOU show some responsibility and YOU think of others. What about those who have lost their jobs, whose businesses have been destroyed, whose mental health is suffering, whose education has been ruined, who’s cancer treatment has stopped, whose operations have been cancelled, who’re locked up with abusers or murdered, who are being harassed by the police for simply going outside and enjoying the sunshine (and yes vulnerable people from poorer and BME communities are more effected by this as well), whose fertility treatment has been cancelled, who are desperately lonely, whose marriages are falling apart.. the list goes on and on...
why is everyone so resolutely fixated on this one very particular risk, and this one very particular type of harm, when there are so many other forms of suffering to be taken into account?

The claims you make in your post about what would have happened without lockdown and what will happen if lockdown is eased are not facts, they are theories/ predictions / models, that have a flimsy evidence base that gets flimsier by the day. It’s now widely agreed by scientists that the 500,000 estimated was wildly exaggerated/ off the mark, and countries that are easing lockdown accross Europe are not yet seeing a second wave.

@WutheringBites

Can’t be arsed to rtft. But one thing I will say; we have no fucking clue what the long term of this shorty virus is. Is it like dengue and Ebola, where the infection causes a worse storm each time it infects? We just don’t know. And the it’s not the being ill you need to worry about; it’s your body’s immune “fight back” and cytokine storm that kills.

Whoever first thought of the phrase “herd immunity” in this context should be shot.

Yes, the problem is that at the beginning the government threw phrases like that around (along with “we’re all going to get it”, “mild for most people”, “just wash your hands” etc.) Then they realised this was turning really nasty really quickly and they tried to row back from it, but it was too late. It stuck. Psychologically people find it easier to blame the big bad lockdown than to acknowledge there’s a nasty and scary virus out there.

@cherryblossommorningstoday

YABVU and so is everyone agreeing with you.

If we hadn't had a prolonged lockdown 500,000 could have died.

If we relax everything the numbers will increase. Given that up to 50% or more are asymptomatic, you could be the one spreading the virus to others who then become seriously ill. Just because you don't care about yourselves it doesn't mean you get to help decide the fate of others.

I think you should show some responsibility and think of others.

On the news tonight they spoke about super spreaders. It's thought 10% are responsible for 80% of infections. 1 man in South Korea was responsible for 150 infections, so yes, it's a danger.

[quote Bizawit]@cherryblossommorningstoday how about YOU show some responsibility and YOU think of others. What about those who have lost their jobs, whose businesses have been destroyed, whose mental health is suffering, whose education has been ruined, who’s cancer treatment has stopped, whose operations have been cancelled, who’re locked up with abusers or murdered, who are being harassed by the police for simply going outside and enjoying the sunshine (and yes vulnerable people from poorer and BME communities are more effected by this as well), whose fertility treatment has been cancelled, who are desperately lonely, whose marriages are falling apart.. the list goes on and on...
why is everyone so resolutely fixated on this one very particular risk, and this one very particular type of harm, when there are so many other forms of suffering to be taken into account?

The claims you make in your post about what would have happened without lockdown and what will happen if lockdown is eased are not facts, they are theories/ predictions / models, that have a flimsy evidence base that gets flimsier by the day. It’s now widely agreed by scientists that the 500,000 estimated was wildly exaggerated/ off the mark, and countries that are easing lockdown accross Europe are not yet seeing a second wave.[/quote]
That’s because they’re easing lockdown at far fewer daily cases than we are.

I totally agree with you OP. If you are scared of it stay in. If not then start living again. It’s madness the sacrifices people are still having to make. How long can we go on like this for?

[quote Bizawit]@cherryblossommorningstoday how about YOU show some responsibility and YOU think of others. What about those who have lost their jobs, whose businesses have been destroyed, whose mental health is suffering, whose education has been ruined, who’s cancer treatment has stopped, whose operations have been cancelled, who’re locked up with abusers or murdered, who are being harassed by the police for simply going outside and enjoying the sunshine (and yes vulnerable people from poorer and BME communities are more effected by this as well), whose fertility treatment has been cancelled, who are desperately lonely, whose marriages are falling apart.. the list goes on and on...
why is everyone so resolutely fixated on this one very particular risk, and this one very particular type of harm, when there are so many other forms of suffering to be taken into account?

The claims you make in your post about what would have happened without lockdown and what will happen if lockdown is eased are not facts, they are theories/ predictions / models, that have a flimsy evidence base that gets flimsier by the day. It’s now widely agreed by scientists that the 500,000 estimated was wildly exaggerated/ off the mark, and countries that are easing lockdown accross Europe are not yet seeing a second wave.[/quote]
Again, the number of victims so far tallies with 500,000 victims without lockdown. In fact the Imperial model may have been conservative at 250,000.
Certainly it’s laughable now that Chris Whitty thought we could get away with 20,000. We’ve far far exceeded that and many many more are still catching it.

I agree with you.
People who are high risk or live with someone high risk should be supported to take whatever measures are needed to protect themselves.
Everyone else should get back to real life.
I cannot believe that we are trying to implement social distancing measures (other than washing hands/isolating if cold symptoms) for the long term. To do so is totally impractical. Impossible even, without causing significant adverse effects to other parts of life.
Insane to think that we can have children back at school PART TIME for the foreseeable future. Madness. How do they think working families are going to cope?
Frankly what they need to do is cut the furlough scheme because as soon as they do I guarantee that the majority of the population will be against further lockdown and social distancing restrictions.

Herehooverthinkzebras.

All i heard was talk about very old people,people of 50 were not mentioned. And be honest how many healthy 50 year olds have died of the virus.And its mostly the very old who have died of the virus,just like many do of the flu.People die of all sorts of things,cancer included,How many regular mamagrams have been postponed due to this,how many dental examinations havent picked up mouth cancer.The list is endless,The virus isnt only thing that kills people,yet it seems every other illness must be ignored because of it.People are losing jobs, homes etc and unemployment will be at rates never seen.Poverty kills people too you know.

We cannot wait till virus goes, it wont,we have to manage it and live with it,and come out of lockdown.Never before it modern times and we are in 21st century,though recently it seems like weve gone back in time has a healthy population been quarantined its normally the sick who do.We have to fact facts and accept yes there will be more cases probably but also accept people die of other things too, and if this lockdown goes on much longer,many more who could live wont and it wont be virus that kills them.

"nasty and scary virus"...I mean with a thought process and language like that, there's no wonder you are cementing the door closed on your nuclear bunker. 🤦🏻‍♀️🙄

Could one of the people on here insisting that easing the restrictions would cause devastation, explain what happened to the apocolypse we were promised as a result of VE day? It doesn't seem to have put in an appearance. Possibly your predictions here are as inaccurate as those have turned out to be.

Agree completely OP. The lockdown made sense when there was so much uncertainty. We understand the disease better now and it’s time to move to balancing and managing risks.

All i heard was talk about very old people,people of 50 were not mentioned. And be honest how many healthy 50 year olds have died of the virus.

See, it depends what you mean by healthy 50 year olds doesn't it? Or even those in their thirties like a couple of the nurses were. Having high blood pressure or asthma at 50 doesn't mean you were on your last knockings and about to die anyway does it? They, in all likelihood, had another 30+ years left to live but in your Brave New World they don't matter?

Many healthy younger people have caught this and are still recovering. They haven't died so aren't in the statistics but not dead doesn't mean back to normal. No one really knows the long term health implications of having had this. I did initially hear rumours it could cause infertility but not heard anything lately so your hurry to get life back to normal might be risking thousands of younger people suffering life long serious health problems, because they just do not know the implications of this yet. Is that ok with you?

@EmpressoftheMundane

Agree completely OP. The lockdown made sense when there was so much uncertainty. We understand the disease better now and it’s time to move to balancing and managing risks.

Do we? Do they know How it's caught How it attacks certain systems within the body Why some people are more seriously affected than others Why some risk factors predispose you to more severe illness The long term implications Why some people are asymptomatic, some have a milder illness, some serious illnesses, some have SARS, some go into multi organ failure, some die?

Seems to me that's there's a huge amount that they don't know.

I agree with you op. I'm not going to write a massive long message as most has already been said but the hysterical arent listening.

The deaths are drastically down. How is that as dangerous as it was in april? Its been months , the deaths are down and we need to crack on.

Most of the country are staying in not to protect themselves but other people (the shielding and the vulnerable). I'm not too bothered about getting it (obs I still social distance when out and about and I wash my hands etx) because the risk to me is minuscule. The risk to so many people is minuscule. Yes people are on 20percent less wages, are unemployed, are stuck in, are suffering with their anxiety, are drinking more to cope, kids are missing school wnx their friends... all to protect a small section of the community.

And figures show that in 90% death cases there was a pre existing condition. 26% of deaths (so barely a quarter) of deaths in March and april were from covid (when the media hysteria would make you believe it to be far higher) in that timeframe, 11thousand odd were over 90,almost 6k 85-89, 3 thousand over 80, and just over 2thousand in their 70s. 36 people aged over 40

Sp the young peoples who's uni courses, education, careers, friendships, relationships have been on hold .... have more risk being run over by a car than dying of covid. Yet no one advocates banning cars

The majority of the country shut down to protect the few, many of whom have lived a good life to a good age. Only 12% of all deaths related to covid have been under 65. And in my family weve had people die,not due to covid. All death is sad. But when someone goes and they're 70 or 80, they've had a good life. Is it really worth fucking up the economy and all our lives?

And the view 'I dont want to go out so you shouldnt either' towards lockdown easing is ridiculous. If you want to stay indoors, keep your kids off, anti bac your bananas, avoid supermarkets like the plague and stay at home until the number becomes 0 then knock yourself out. If you feel you have to because of your health, I am sorry you're having an absolutely shite time.

But just because one sector of people have to stick to strict lockdown, that doesnt mean the rest of us do. That's akin to saying because I'm unemployed you should be too.

The devolved nations thing is fucking stupid btw. If wales hadnt put that stupid 5miles guidance in I could have seen my parents, but because I'm 300miles away I cant. I can go to a bbq and see 6 people but they cant be my parents. Idiotic

I also find different companies approaches annoying. McDonalds and costa have been overly cautious, are we sure none of the hysterical mumsnetters are advising them? KFC opened Drive thrus and deliveries ages ago. Subways are all open. McDonalds is only for drove thrus which is no good if you have no car. Costa have literally opened a handful of stores for takeaways and I'm sure my Gestapo would criticise travelling miles for a costa.

All this fearmonging is pathetic. I really think well look at this time as the time the world and his dog overreacted

@BamboozledandBefuddled

Could one of the people on here insisting that easing the restrictions would cause devastation, explain what happened to the apocolypse we were promised as a result of VE day? It doesn't seem to have put in an appearance. Possibly your predictions here are as inaccurate as those have turned out to be.

It just may not be showing up yet.

Up to two week incubation, then around day 7 - 9 of illness is when hospitalisation is needed so those spikes might only just be coming to light now. We are still having about 8 - 9000 cases a day - they are coming from somewhere.

Up to two week incubation, then around day 7 - 9 of illness is when hospitalisation is needed so those spikes might only just be coming to light now. We are still having about 8 - 9000 cases a day - they are coming from somewhere.

Two weeks plus 9 days = 23 days. We're now 26 days from VE day so it would appear that the infected hordes have all taken a full two weeks for incubation plus needed the maximum time to require hospitalisation - and still haven't managed to achieve it Forgive me if I'm not convinced about that spike. But please, don't let me stop you hoping it arrives.

*Well the scientific opinion is that it's too early to release lockdown and that daily new cases are still high and not rapidly decreasing and so we must proceed slowly.

What advice are you following when deciding we must open schools and get back to work now?*

The advice about all the other unintended consequences of Covid such as domestic violence, poverty, loss of education and opportunity. I think it is mainly privileged people who want to remain on lockdown

Re VE Day

I never claimed that VE Day would lead to the apocalypse so I don't feel I have to justify the fact that it seems to have only caused a levelling off of any improvements

But just because something very bad didn't happen when some people were saying it might does not mean we can throw all rare sense out of the window and claim something and will therefore not happen

People seem to not understand how coupled we all are, nor do they seem to understand just how many vulnerable people there are. You don't see vulnerable, you see normal people.

Do you really think that the scientists are only thinking direct covid and ignoring everything else? Really?
Why do you think they would be so Stupid?

Hint, they are not politicians

Agree op Yanbu

Germany has about the same number of new cases per day as we have deaths.

As long as this goes on it's not safe to lift the lockdown. However, looking at how badly the government is handling things, I understand the OP. It's an awful mess here.

@CoachBombay

"nasty and scary virus"...I mean with a thought process and language like that, there's no wonder you are cementing the door closed on your nuclear bunker. 🤦🏻‍♀️🙄

Would you prefer me to get out my Latin dictionary and throw some big words around, a la Boris? Either way, it wouldn’t change the substance of the argument.

@EmpressoftheMundane

Agree completely OP. The lockdown made sense when there was so much uncertainty. We understand the disease better now and it’s time to move to balancing and managing risks.

No we don't understand the illness. I have been told by three doctors now that my ongoing covid symptoms may well be chronic and forever (lungs, etc). I have been having symptoms for 79 days today and I am not alone. Doctors DO NOT understand the illness. NHS doctors struggle with it and I recommend reading this: www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/weird-hell-professor-advent-calendar-covid-19-symptoms-paul-garner

Look at scientific fact and data. We have bar America the highest rate of death, due to lack of speed by government and those selfish enough that they think life can carry on as normal.!

We still currently have more deaths than we did when we went into lockdown. The mind boggles at people seeming to think we should go back to normal - the virus is here to stay and easing the lockdown is likely to result in a spike. Certain ways of easing the lockdown are safer than others, and the government could certainly make choices that could help people's mental health and other issues, but in the end social distancing is going to be required while the virus is spreading. If people don't stick to this, more people will die and the virus will spread further. It really would not take long to get to a point where the NHS is overwhelmed if we let it spread, and if we ease lockdown too quickly we will need a more severe lockdown again. The quickest way out of this is to start an adequate track and trace programme so that we can do localised lockdowns where necessary to slow the spread, something that still is not ready yet.

The thing is that isn't about you. Yes you can do what you like and you may be safe enough, but there is no way that vulnerable people can be completely shielded from the whole of society. A 1% death rate of 7 million people is still a lot of people. If you choose to do what you like without regard for other people, that's on you.

It's worth pointing out that the virus is the issue here not the lockdown. How much of a focus do you think cancer screenings and mental health will be if the NHS is overwhelmed? How happy are your kids going to be being educated at school and then knowing someone who dies from this disease?