To have not much sympathy?

[WelcomeToTheNorth]

Acquaintance on Facebook. Big ranting post about being made to take annual leave whilst on furlough. Not fair, either furloughed or we’re not, not in the spirit etc etc.

I mean clearly this is to prevent the furloughed employees from coming back to work with a huge stack of annual leave to take. Therefore it is exactly in the spirit of the scheme i.e. ensuring there is a workforce in place when things get moving again.

For background - I am working full time (for 80% pay) with two under-6s. Many of my colleagues have been furloughed (also at 80% - equal contribution and all that 🤨) and we are working flat out to cover it all. My mental health is shot. So yeah do you know what? I am bitter.

I completely understand that people didn’t ask to be furloughed but to be honest (I’ve had a wine or two so forgive me) I feel like people moaning about this sort of thing can do one!

Spud I do sympathise with how hard you’ve been working. 100%. It’s a completely unsustainable situation. My mental health is in tatters with it.

I do see your point. However, you also need to see it from the point of view of your husbands employer (and perhaps his non-furloughed colleagues - I don’t know his circumstances). That’s the bigger picture.

Spud I know, I was referring to the part where you talked about your husband's AL. It seemed that you think you should both be entitled to take AL at the same time so you can go on holiday together.

If you're furloughed you need to be a bit more flexible. If your company asks you to take some AL during furlough then it would be unreasonable to kick up a fuss and refuse because you want a holiday with your partner. We all need to do our bit.

All of his colleagues have been furloughed @WelcomeToTheNorth
I have sympathy for everyone in this situation, regardless of their circumstances, particularly those with children. It must be hell for them.

I actually think the problem is your work not allowing you to take annual leave now while you need it and he is off and you could spend family time. Appreciate you can't go anywhere but you need a break.

They would have allowed it @Waxonwaxoff0 but with people going sick or off for 3 months we were on the bare bones of staff.
Sadly we were short staffed prior to lockdown, then lockdown happened so just as we recruited we couldn't actually start them as lockdown meant we couldn't train them.
My boss is absolutely terrific, if we all took our leave during lockdown I'm sure it would have tipped my boss clean over the edge. To be fair, my boss has been working above and beyond to work the shifts when they were impossible to fill due to sickness etc.

I'm considering myself quite fortunate, I have an office with proper desk and chair, I'm able to work at normal rate at home, hoping to get a full size screen soon as I'm getting a crick in my neck but that aside it's fine. DH is out the house working, my DC are adults so don't need minding or educating. My employer is saying to take normal holidays, sure some of it is for their benefit, but we also need them. A colleague was able to cancel her easter week and take it as individual data so she could do a 4 day weeks for a while.

We would have liked to go away to our beloved Minorca but accept its not happening this year. Our summer hols are booked for june, DH can't move his so we'll just have to make the best of it.

@Chilver and @Trevsadick

I'm just giving my experience. I re-read my furlough letter, just to see if I had misread it initially, but no, we are told we can't take leave on furlough. Our company is topping up though, so it makes absolutely no sense to take leave on furlough. We have been discouraged from using leave unless we really want to - outside of the requirement for all working staff to take 5 days before the end of June.
Exact wording below:

"You will continue to accrue holiday in the normal way while on furlough leave, but you may not take any holiday during the furlough leave unless you are notified by the business that you may do so. Where it is not reasonably practicable for you to take all of your accrued holiday in the current leave year, you may take up to 20 days’ holiday in the two leave years immediately following the leave year in respect of which it was due."

I don't think the company is there for the employees benefit, but a good company looks out for its employees and that's what I've been seeing. When normality resumes, we'll work around client requirements and common sense to see that people get there holidays. People will likely carry some over to the following years. It'll work itself out.

The day a person cannot or will not work is the day s/he is unemployed. Unemployed people can claim unemployment pay, it should be the same for everyone. It's hard to comprehend why one set of unemployed people now get a preferential handout from the taxpayers. Individual firms, or entire industries, must adapt or fail, when circumstances change.
Maybe they will do something more worthwhile. Certainly they will need to incorporate flexibility into their plans for the future. Individuals and firms will change, and change again, with rare exceptions.

The world population doubling within a lifetime, and the wilful encouragment of waste and pollution, was neither sustainable nor tolerable, and it was extraordinary to name it The Economy, to measure it by G.D.P., and worship it without question as a national and international objective.

G.D.P. measurement excludes most of what makes our planet and it's inhabitants happy, such as peace, wildlife, relationships, and includes most of what doesn't, such as fighting for power then abusing it, such as frenzy and hamster wheel debt and spending, and such as polluting, destroying, and buying 'stuff'.

Working is significantly easier than taking care of my toddler. I consider work a break and am delighted to have been unfurloughed now as not only has my mental health drastically improved as I'm slightly less afraid of redundancy, I'm also much less stressed and exhausted because now I get some time during the day where I'm using my brain and working rather than just running around after a demanding and rambunctious toddler. As for doing all the things @madein1995 imagines those of us on furlough have been doing - ha! I can tell you don't have children! Parenting during lockdown is absolutely NOT the same as parenting when you're on annual leave. I can't take DD to the park. I can't meet up with other parents and kids. I can't take her to the shops, to see our family, to the beach, to town, on the train, on a bus. All the usual avenues of entertaining her and allowing her to expend energy have gone. You see how much "colouring, book reading and mindfulness" you manage to achieve when you have to keep a 2 and a half year old entertained in your own four walls for 12-16 hours a day!

Peachgreen I have a two year old and a five year old and I’m working full time at home trying to keep the plates spinning. This is the reality for many, many people. Your post is so tone deaf it made me cringe.

peach that's the point though, its like annual leave during lockdown. No parents can take their kids to the park now, furloughed or not, AL or not. That's part of being in a pandemic and having children tbh. Are you trying to wfh while managing the children? If so I imagine it's even harder

Also I dont need or want to imagine because I chose not to have kids. Am quite glad of that during this lockdown. Yea, it's hard for parents in lockdown. Is hard for anyone. Being on AL in lockdown still includes children and no parks

Is he undeserving of a holiday or spending time with his wife just because he has been furloughed?
Does he only get one week off a year? Or does he deserves to have 4 weeks away with his wife?

My organisation isn't making anyone take leave and isn't insisting nothing is cancelled. We were allowed to roll some over to this year. Everything was kicking off just as the leave year was coming to an end so I cancelled 10 days (last 2 weeks of March). I now have 40 days to take this year and won't be able to carry any over.

The only stipulation we have been given is that those not furloughed will have priority for booking their leave. It's likely that all that will be left for anyone on furlough will be the dregs. Most of the staff have 30 days holiday and hardly anyone has taken any yet. It will be unfortunate for those that have specific dates in mind but hadn't booked them prior to all this.

We are a charity so can't afford to pay bonuses for those still working so the annual leave "perk" is one of the few things that can be done.

I've managed to book about half of my leave in as not furloughed. Christmas is already booked!

You have to also remember that not everyone who is furloughed actually wanted to be furloughed, and that for some the 20% in wage makes a difference. For some being at home, even with payment, will cause them anxiety and stress,. There is the added concern about job stability too, especially for those currently furloughed.

Employers should be following the rules regarding holidays and pay, regardless of having some people working or not.

I don't think the arguing between furlough and non-furloughed workers is helpful. It will create a barrier/divide which may be hard to come back from, and won't help anyone in the long run.

Peachgreen I have a two year old and a five year old and I’m working full time at home trying to keep the plates spinning.

Take away the five year old and add in an elderly disabled FIL and a shielding DH and I'm in the same position. My opinion - that being furloughed is not the same as being on annual leave, and that for me personally, working is easier - remains the same. Not sure what's tone deaf about that.

Are you trying to wfh while managing the children? If so I imagine it's even harder
Yes I am - but no, for me, being back at work is significantly easier than when I was furloughed and caring for DD full time. I'm just trying to say that furlough isn't a holiday for many people and for many, working is preferable.

OP, YANBU. I really feel for you.

And for everyone else saying the OP is being divisive, read the post again. The complaint is about ingratitude and insensitivity - and yes, people complaining about having to take AL while on furlough are insensitive and ungrateful.

I'm sure for lots of people working is preferable, but those people are likely envisioning the work environment as it was when they were last there. I cant speak for other businesses, but carrying an entire department and the anxiety of knowing that if you don't show up there is NO ONE to help is exhausting. I've never been as tired or stressed.

I have been furloughed and am now back at work. Yes, it's incredibly busy - the busiest I've ever been. Our key stakeholders are expecting the same amount of work with less than a quarter of the team and zero budget. It is extremely tiring. But for me it's still better than being furloughed. That might not be the case for everyone. But threads that act like furlough is one big jolly holiday are intensely irritating because that is just not true for many people.

Legally holiday has to be paid at 100% while furloughed. You can deem holiday to be taken and decrement balances as such, but the hours must be paid at 100%.
I think in your scenario being paid 80% but still working you have every right to be annoyed by this moaning Minnie, I would be! We have thousands of employees furloughed and I’m working full time, crazy hours over normal, but am at least being paid normal pay.

Our furloughed staff have been told they cannot cancel any booked leave. The working staff have been told it would be better if the didn't cancel booked leave (we'd rather you didn't).
I'm working and cancelled my Easter week off because a) I was far too busy to have time off, and b) I would rather use it in August (sounds like we'll still be WFH by then). Leave year ends September.
No idea what furloughed are expected to do with their leave if they didn't book any as you can book it off throughout the year

I feel for pretty much everyone - we’re all being judged by someone. None of us asked for this. I really feel for teachers. I had an argument with a guy who said teachers should just work through the summer holidays straight into the new academic year.

100% agree with you - I'm in the same position. Shit end of the stick big time!

All I know is my husbands company put out a memo and whilst furlough no holidays could be taken. Which makes sense to me. If you can't work for them during furlough how can you holiday?

Our firm has had 1 furloughed worker. He was the main earner in his family. The anxiety about money has affected him greatly as he received much less pay and no longer received production bonuses either (discretionary anyway, and non-payable as he wasn’t in to “produce”). We all felt for him, especially as he’s no longer really fit for work through the stress. but at the same time we had other team members working flat out to cover him and other staff who were ill. However, we did the right thing and handed him back his AL that he’d booked off before furlough. However, for all of us who had AL booked (holidays, wedding, operations) that had to be cancelled, none of us were made to take it and we’ve all got a lot of hold to take in the next 6 months.