To have not much sympathy?

[WelcomeToTheNorth]

Acquaintance on Facebook. Big ranting post about being made to take annual leave whilst on furlough. Not fair, either furloughed or we’re not, not in the spirit etc etc.

I mean clearly this is to prevent the furloughed employees from coming back to work with a huge stack of annual leave to take. Therefore it is exactly in the spirit of the scheme i.e. ensuring there is a workforce in place when things get moving again.

For background - I am working full time (for 80% pay) with two under-6s. Many of my colleagues have been furloughed (also at 80% - equal contribution and all that 🤨) and we are working flat out to cover it all. My mental health is shot. So yeah do you know what? I am bitter.

I completely understand that people didn’t ask to be furloughed but to be honest (I’ve had a wine or two so forgive me) I feel like people moaning about this sort of thing can do one!

I can't help feeling being furloughed should count, for holiday purposes, as "not working" and therefore holiday entitlement should be pro rataed accordingly.

DH is working from home and the company have asked him to take 1/4 of his holiday entitlement during the 3 months it is currently planned he is working from home, to stop everyone from saving their holiday and all trying to book it off at once at the end of the year. It seems fair enough.

I am pushed to my limit too. I have been so busy. TBF my comopany could not have known how furlough would work and so they were a bit trigger happy and furloughed 80% of staff. The rest of us have been worked to the ground. I have literally begged to have some staff come back and have been told that the organisaiton needed the subsidies otherwise. I am doing 13-14 hour days and working weekends. I worked both bank holidays. i have been literally beside myself that I have called my GP and got put back on anti depressants and called the samaritans in the early hours of the morning because of how this has made me feel.

I had a furloughed collegue also moan on facebook that it was unfair that when we go back to normla those of us still working would 'get prioority' over booking holidays. She said she was going to contact ACAS about it. I have spoken about this on these sorts of threads.

My work place is not offering any bonus payments, or even any time off in lieu. This week they said that we can't carry over any unused leave. Even those of us who kept working and quite genuinely could NOT take leave. I took 2 hours 'off' last Wednesday after starting work at 5 am because i was exhausted. The enxt day I came back to a clusterfuck of shit and have not dared take a single hour 'off' since.

THAT is the reality of many of us. And I am trying to home school as well (two DCs and 1 computer). It has been a hideous time that has nearly finished me off.

So no- when my furloughed friends or colleagues moan I confess i do NOT have any sympathy. And it is not true that my job is going to be 'more secure'. i am busting a gut to do my bit to keep the company alive, but it may well still fail.... they warned us of that this week.

The whole situation for everyone is bad. But I DO think a bit of sensitivity towards those of us who are being ground down by the relentless nature of it is in order.

My dh work have said no one can cancel leave etc even at beginning
Not sure on furlough staff as my dh has had to work throughout
Some has no holiday booked though so little unfair been off ( 100 % pay ) for 6 weeks and still have all holiday
Whereas dh had to work throughout and has to take days we had booked despite things being cancelled yha we had booked them for

I can see taking holidays will become a major problem of children still arent back at school. Most parents I know take 2 weeks off each in the 6 weeks to avoid paying for childcare. Telling a family theyve got to find 4 weeks worth of childcare if not going to be easy for anyone.
How can you work if you have no childcare?
I dont think anybody really expected it to go on this long, I feel for anybody working, furloughed, redundant. You dont know what's going to happen and everyone is in the same boat scared.

I think furloughed employees should be grateful they've continued to have an income and a job to go back to. Asking them to use some of that time off as annual leave isn't unreasonable. Annoying, yes. But not unreasonable.

Unfurloughed employees who have likely been working flat out to cover everyone's jobs as well as their own should have first pick of annual leave dates for the rest of the year. They'll need it most.

And everyone should be entitled to roll some of their leave into the following year.

@grisen

I’m working full time and have to take my holiday dates during furlough. My partner is on furlough and doesn’t have to take holidays now. It’s unfair but that’s just life.

You can't be working full time and be furloughed though?

I don't think the fact they're furloughed is relevant. I'm not furloughed and we've been made to book a certain % of our annual leave. My MIL has had the same, and we both work for massive international companies. Like you say it's to stop the company having everyone off all at once when things start to open up again. Yeah it's a bit rubbish because obviously we can't go anywhere but I understand why they've done it. Our holiday year for example runs September to September. If they hadn't made people take some this summer, everyone would be carrying forward several weeks into next year and it's just not practical.

Greenteamug I am right there with you. This is exactly where I am. i am phoning the doctor this week.

It's the least of my worries if my employer deducts annual leave . I'm worried about my job if I can go back and when .
If they want to deduct some annual leave fine as long as I've some days for when I'll need to be off like Christmas/ childcare etc .

We have a lot of entitled wankers at our place outraged and been to union about being told to take 50% of a/l by end of august.

We have 2 on shielding full pay have canceled a/l done on automated system and they had not put a stop on it they have now .

Work have now got there act together most people think that government ruling about carrying 2 week forward will apply, it won't they chose not to not they couldn't take it .
Work have been very clear about how we must take it recorded all unused a/l slots so they will lose it.

[quote Waxonwaxoff0]@SoloMummy if the 6 million people currently on furlough had been put on benefits we'd still have to pay for that. Benefits are paid for by tax, so tax still would have gone up. We're fucked either way. At least this way some people will keep their jobs. It's better than suddenly having 6 million people unemployed.[/quote]
Do you not get that we've paid way over and beyond though? On benefits, theywouldnhave received far less overall, even if on benefits for a year!
Tax would have gone up, but not exponentially like it will.
Given 50% of the furloughed will be jobless, its delayed the inevitable at an incredibly high cost for us all.
Those that lose their homes will then rent. They won't most likely get social housing. Again even if they claim housing benefits for a year , they won't get close to the furlough bill....

It's US who will ALL SUFFER.

@happinessischocolate

My employers have furloughed some people on 80% of wage and are deducting 1/2 a days holiday each week which is a bit dodgy to say the least, it is understandable on 100% but not 80% but if it helps keep the company afloat then it's hard to complain. 🤷‍♀️

that doesnt sound legal - furlough is paying for you for 4 days, so they cannot take another half day and say its not on furlough, they would have to pay another 1/2 day to make it up? are they doing that?

I’m furloughed and happy to give up an appropriate percentage of my annual leave. I’d just be grateful if I have a job to go back to - one I’ve done for 17 years.

Solomummy, do you even understand why the furlough scheme was implemented?

I'm with you OP. I totally get that furloughed staff may not have chosen this or that they may be worried about jobs but if they had any awareness at all they would not be boasting about how they are spending their free time or complaining about stuff like holidays or training on social media. Obviously if they want to do that that is their choice but have a think how it makes those still working feel. I'm working more hours than I did before this so more hours than I get paid for and I have four kids, three of whom are at school, so trying to juggling homeschooling too. I am absolutely exhausted and slipping back into depression so forgive me if I don't empathise with anyone while they are posting pics of yet another family fucking barbecue.

Actually, you can agree that people on furliugh should be enjoying certain aspect of it and be happy about it. My team really enjoyed it at first. I loved hearing what they had been upto. They were very respectful of the fact that I was still working.

But you can also think that some people on furlough have an entitled attitude. You may want to 'rinse your annual leave' when you get back. You may not be able to. Your employer can dictate when you take it. You may find those people actually still working are given priority when you return. Or you may find thet enforce you to take 2 weeks before returning from furlough. Furlough is about keeping the companies going. Many companies can not bring loads of people back for them to all rinse their annual leave in the last few months. They need their staff their actually doing work to make money.

And its like a holiday. Plenty of people take annual leave and don't go anywhere. People should enjoy it. For many people its the longest break they will get. Why not enjoy it. But you can't expect to have loads of people off for a portion of the year then have loads of them off on the last part. How is your business going to make money, if everyone is 'rinsing' their annual leave in the last quarter.

If the company can make money without needing a large portion if staff, there will be redundancies.

I like our company did it. If it was booked you were taking it. And they are offering to buy back a maximum of 50% of annual leave. Plenty of people want to overtime to make up lost money and dont want to be taking loads of time off. We still have the same workload, just in less weeks to do it. So there will be over time.

If you had already booked your annual leave, you didn't need it for something else later in the year.

oh and yes the non furloughed are just as worried about redundancies or their company closing.

Thats not unique to furloughed people. Some people may feel the non furloughed are more secure, but that's not 100% guaranteed.

I think it’s pretty clear from OPs post that she’s struggling with her mental health due to the extreme pressure. I don’t want to be patronising OP but depression and anxiety can make people lash out because you feel you are just out of tolerance for others. It’s really hard. I’m sure you are a nice person OP and your comments are just you reacting to what seems to be provocation when you’re under extreme stress. Would it be possible to go off sick for a bit. You must look after yourself.

Just to add - the annual leave one is tricky. It may not be how we’d want to spend our holidays but at the end of the day we all need to make some sacrifices. The situation which could prove tricky is if people were keeping it for the school holidays to use as childcare

@SoloMummy no it wouldn't be far less, seeing as the majority of the furloughed are in low paid jobs like non essential retail, beauty therapists, pub staff. Not everyone is getting £2500 a month.

We live in a society where we all pull together to help, not just say fuck those who can't work through no fault of their own.

Of course companies are going to ask their workers to take holidays while being furloughed. Do you really think that you could be paid to be at home until potentially September and still be able to book up to 25 days holiday between September and December, along with all the other staff members.

Companies are already possible not working properly for 6 months and then have staff booking left right and centre. When businesses start to working they are going to want to be trying to get back normal and earning as soon as possible.

The problem is when things go back to normal everyone will want to take their annual leave and there will be no-one left at work ! My team are wfh, people do want to cancel their leave because they can't go anywhere but we've been told we still need to take it so that there are staff working when lockdown lifts.

@SoloMummy and I expect that if you worked in one of the industries that has been ordered to close you would feel a bit differently. I doubt you'd be happy to just go on benefits and lose your home. But as long as it doesn't have to happen to you, hey?

I think furlough has given a lifeline but there are certainly some companies that have implemented it in a way that has caused resentment for those still working and there are some staff on furlough that seem to be completely oblivious to the financial challenge their companies will be under. My husband has been working extremely long hours for a large pay reduction. He is trying to keep a business afloat and has very little tolerance for people moaning about coming off furlough or moaning about needing to take some annual leave when they are effectively on a massive holiday. He is far more worried about what happens if the business goes under and thousands of people lose their jobs or what to do with staff who are shielding who can’t safely return. People moaning about how hard home school has been when they’re off (and the gore it isn’t a holiday) are taking the piss when many families are trying to do it with dual workers.

I think it's fair enough. I am furloughed and don't care if I lose annual leave - our employer will be paying us 100% for the annual leave deducted though rather than the 80%.

It's true that we can't do what we would usually like on our holiday, but we are still having a great deal of time off work and it won't be ideal if employees have 4-5 weeks of holiday left to take once we do go back.

I'm 100% home working and getting paid but we've been told we've all to take our holidays as planned. Regardless of the fact we can't do anything. You can't have the entire workforce wanting all their holidays in the last half of the year.

I don't agree with taking off a half day repeatedly though. People should should have to take a certain percentage of their holidays before a certain point.

Maybe actual holidays should be paid at 100% though? who knows.

I have my two weeks summer holidays in two weeks time - not ideal but what can you do?