To have not much sympathy?

[WelcomeToTheNorth]

Acquaintance on Facebook. Big ranting post about being made to take annual leave whilst on furlough. Not fair, either furloughed or we’re not, not in the spirit etc etc.

I mean clearly this is to prevent the furloughed employees from coming back to work with a huge stack of annual leave to take. Therefore it is exactly in the spirit of the scheme i.e. ensuring there is a workforce in place when things get moving again.

For background - I am working full time (for 80% pay) with two under-6s. Many of my colleagues have been furloughed (also at 80% - equal contribution and all that 🤨) and we are working flat out to cover it all. My mental health is shot. So yeah do you know what? I am bitter.

I completely understand that people didn’t ask to be furloughed but to be honest (I’ve had a wine or two so forgive me) I feel like people moaning about this sort of thing can do one!

Whether or not people get to keep their holiday entitlement will be completely up to their employers (assuming they keep their jobs after lockdown). So long as they have their annual statutory entitlement of leave, employers can require it to be taken whenever they want. That may seem unfair, but it's also reality.

My employer is allowing a maximum of 5 days carry over and no changes to pre-booked holiday. Any new bookings have to agreed with the team first so there's enough people in the office. It sucks that we're not going to be able to go away, but that's the way it is this year.

I've been working FT from home throughout and its been crazy busy. Our company is making everyone, worldwide, take 3 dictated weeks off this year to reduce the financial liability, and only 1 of those weeks is in UK school holiday time.
So I only have 5 days left to take when I want, have to have a week off in June where I can't go anywhere, and still have to do the home school, a week in July where we have booked to go camping with crossed fingers even though its term time, and have to decide it I want time off in August or leave it till half term.
With the best will in the world, they can't have people on furlough building up holiday time which they'll want to take - or have an additional financial strain on the company of carrying it forward

@Ylvamoon, oh behave! I was quoting the PP who was upset as people currently furloughed and having to use holiday wouldn't have the silver lining of even more time off to look forward to.

Folk working are also having to take their leave while not being furloughed and unable to do anything at any point. I think they should get first priority for time off if anyone is allowed to keep leave back.

Even not during a pandemic, most employers require you take a certain set amount of annual leave by certain deadlines in the year so people don’t hoard it and use it all up in one go at the same time. It’s perfectly within their rights to make you take annual leave by certain periods. Also, non-furloughed workers are being forced to take annual leave too. They can’t go anywhere either! Most people don’t take annual leave literally for travel or a holiday or fun. It’s just used for days you don’t want to/can’t work.

I also think workers in the same company/office in same job roles who have had to work through the pandemic should get first choice for favourable shifts, holiday dates and Christmas dates over furloughed colleagues for the foreseeable future as they’ve essentially worked for 3 months (and most likely with a larger workload) for almost the same pay as their colleagues in the same job role who have not had to work. It’s nobody’s fault that they’ve been furloughed but a smart employer would be taking steps to readdress the balance of fairness and equity and minimising resentment.

It has gone on longer than anticipated. DH firm require everyone to have taken at least 60% of annual leave by end of August. Weeks taken as annual leave do get full pay though not the 80%. If we go back after October and then want 6 weeks leave this could be as harmful to businesses and lead to redundancies.

The people talking of wanting their silver lining and are they not allowed to want leave to go on holiday is just entitled behaviour in my opinion. It's a choice, kick off or be petulant about it and try keep your annual leave for when you get back after a paid holiday for months or have no job, or worse, no business (so others dont have jobs either) to come back to. Yes, you may not be enjoying furlough and may be stressed, but so what, so is the rest of the world, and many of whom still working who are working for the same or less pay as you and twice their normal workload.

Yes, we may all want a nice holiday overseas or away somewhere other than home, but that is a privilege and one the world cannot afford right now. So suck it up for this year and look forward to next year.

My company did exactly what your friend's company did. On a week with a national holiday we had to use four days mandatory holiday whilst furloughed and we were told it's because the company are concerned about when ppl return they'll have too much holiday to still use. It's perfectly legal. I haven't really got an issue with it tbh

Honestly, I've to an extent enjoyed the holidays I've had to take (as they were already booked off) just to have a break and not be getting up and logging on at 7.30am. I couldn't go anywhere other than a stroll around locally, but I didn't have to do a quick dash round during my half hour lunch or try to squeeze it in before dinner. DH was off too as he's full time NHS and out of the house working most of the time so it was nice to spend some days together, weather wasn't great but I enjoyed the break.

I'm sure i'll manage to enjoy my two weeks off soon. I'm in scotland so we are still in more shut down and the extra relaxations we've been given are really not much use as the people we want to see are too far away and they've shut all our local car parks so even the 5k limit we've been given is not going to help. I was hoping to be able to go for a drive and a picnic but arseholes not adhering to the guidance have fucked that.

I'm planning to have a couple of takeaways if I can get booked in with the chippy and maybe the indian. Make some meals that we might have on holiday (if I can get the right ingredients), get some of our favourite drinks in. If it's not raining we'll go for some local walks and spend time in the garden, maybe do a barbeque. get some new books on my kindle, get the board games out and just pretend we are in Menorca. No point being angry about it.

Furlough is like a holiday though, or at least as much as a holiday can be during this time. They're not working, they're off work, which is what the definition of AL is. Al doesn't require you to be jetting off abroad somewhere. It just means you're not in work

Yes, furloughed people have worries. Yes it must be awful. But ultimately they are free to do what they like, much as the rest of us could if we took AL now. There might be childcare - so do the rest of us. They're free to garden, drink.gin, watch Netflix, have a BBQ. My employer is encouraging us to take AL now, not just for the business but also our mental health. Hes taken AL himself. As even though we csnt go anywhere, peoples MH is struggling and they need time not to be chained to a laptop. I took my weeks leave in April though I couldn't go anywhere. I watched tv, went for walks, drank wine, coloured, sorted out my room. Much as many furloughed are.
The childcare argument is a misnomer. Schools are shut, therefore having the children st home and having to do some schoolwork is called being a parent. Annual leave doesn't mean you abandon nappies or night feeds in normal times I presume, therefore annual leave in a pandemic includes looking after your kids. My manager took AL, and he has kids, so yes he intercepted wine drinking and gardening with children's schoolwork. They took the kids for long walks etc.

Basically furlough is like a holiday, annual leave. AL doesn't mean your worries get magicked away unfortunately.

The non furloughed in companies should get first choice of AL when things return, because the furloughed have basically had 3 months (so far) to do what they like, which if they're a parent also means patenting their child. All the furloughed people I know are having a pretty laid back time! The ones with kids are doing schoolwork although this doesn't mean 8hours a day, it usually means 4 pe 5 hours spread out. They're also laying in, drinking wine/gin/mocktails, sunbathing, watching tv, going for leisurely walks.

I'm personally finding wfh a nice break (yes I've got no kids and I appreciate that's very different for people trying to work with kids about, must be hellish). I get to work in the morning on a sunlounger with a cuppa. Admittedly the wifi is shit though. I can watch tv or go for a walk during my lunch. I have phone appts with service users and manage my own diary, so if I've a few hours gap I can do my food shopping or have s nap if I want. I've been making up hours of an evening doing research on service users while drinking more tea, so on friday I only had to work 5hours. I wouldn't call my current situation a holiday,as I'm working, but it's the closest I'll ever get while working!

People who are furloughed get the fun tv,sunbathing, shopping naps and walks without the work bit. Am not commenting on childcare as during this pandemic that's called being a parent. It still doesn't mean that being off work for 3 months is not a 'holiday' or what a holiday is like during a pandemic. You can take up a hobby, garden, bike rides, walks, runs,watch telly, colour, read a book, write a book, do some home improvements, get caught up on life admin, do some mindfulness, learn a language, do some courses, pursue a different career, nap, sunbathe - it's not like being on a laptop working from home and certainly nowhere near working from an office. Am sure frontline NHS would quite fancy your situation

@Madein1995 my mum is frontline NHS and she certainly would not like my situation. She has been working hard, a lot harder than me of course. But she has a secure job and pension. I might be on Universal Credit soon. Why would anyone want that?

I was among the furloughed and we were not permitted to take any annual leave during furlough. They said it breached the furlough requirements if we were to take annual leave. Fortunately I was removed from the furlough a month ago. Those of us still working have been asked to take a week of annual leave before the end of June to stop it all building up, which is fair enough.

I've been on both sides throughout the lockdown and I don't think furloughed people should be expected to take annual leave.

@sweetpetrichor why dont you think furloughed should take annual leave? They actually would be better financially taking annual leave as you get paid 100% your normal salary for the a/l weeks. Do you think the company is there for employees benefit? That it's ok if the company goes under because everyone stores up a/l and then there is no-one to actually do the work when 'normal' work resumes?

SweetPetrichor you have been misinformed you absolutely can take annual keave during furlough, but you must be paid 100%.

Why do you believe the furloughed should be off work now, come back and have lots of annual leave left, yet non furloughed are forced to take it.

So when everyone is back the furloughed can take more leave. Leaving the non furloughed still in work?

wax oops fat fingers and pressed send too soon! Meant am sure NHS frontline staff would love for their primary worry to be whether or not to take AL. Of course furlough is stressful and the worry is there which is difficult. That doesn't mean someone is working though, which means they're off work, which means they can take AL. Many people on this thread have said they're worried about job security yet still working. Worry doesnt mean you cant take AL

I'm with you OP, I'm well aware that no one chose to be furloughed and for the vast majority who are riddled with anxiety about having a job to return to, a relax in the garden is likely well needed and I don't begrudge them that. What does infuriate me however is the minority opinion of thinking it unfair that you can't bank your holiday allowance or roll it into next year. I actually find it unbelievable that some people who have been off for 10 weeks feel entitled to this meaning they would have more holiday than me when I cannot take a day off and am the only one working in my department, keeping a company going so they are more likely to them have a job to come back to. I know it is stressful but those of us at work are not immune to the uncertainty of the future, nor do we have the benefit of taking a break away for our MH. If I don't work, my work won't get done and that is an incredibly stressful position to be in.

I think this luck of sympathy/ envy bun fight, will turn into a smugness from OP & Co, when the furlough employees have to return to work, because they can't WFH. (Isn't that one of the reasons for furlough???) There won't be any childcare available as Schools will be closed for Summer and Clubs won't run for H&S reasons...

Sinuhe wtf you on about? The furloughed employees in my work are as capable of working from home as I am (more so in many cases, as they aren’t toddler-wrangling at the same time).

Believe me there is no smugness here.

My husband is on furlough, I'm not.
We use our A/L to actually go on holiday. Obviously this year holidays are cancelled.
My A/L is being carried over as I couldn't take it when booked due to staffing, along with lockdown.
My husband's A/L is fortunately being carried over too.
That's the thing that everyone shouting about A/L being carried over when on furlough seems to forget.
It's not just about the furloughed people, but their families too.
I'm working flat out and as soon as lockdown and travel bans are lifted, we will be taking a holiday. Why shouldn't I? I've bloody worked hard enough for it. ( 6 days per week since lockdown began )
If my husband's A/L was to be taken during his furlough then it would mean that I would have to forgoe my holiday.
Call it selfish, but it's a part of the bigger picture that people seem to forget, along with the childcare aspects of it.

I will call it selfish. No one is any entitled to a holiday abroad than anyone else. You are not special.

Noone is saying he would have to take his full entitlement during furlough but some. And of course, there's always the option of you going away with your kids without him.

Yes, cos no one else other than spud has been working hard and deserves a holiday.

Anyway, in our work, apart from a few folk who need to be in to do things such as supervise servers and scan and issue mail, virtually everyone is able to work from home apart from a few who have managed to wangle getting furlough ed due to childcare. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it's difficult but this isn't a universal policy. One person has an NHS worker partner and 3 kids and has been furloughed, another has 4 kids and his wife still working in his home as a child minder for NHS workers children and he's still expected to work full time on a call centre so not able to be flexible in terms of his time.

Everyone has different circumstances, not everyone is getting any benefit from being furloughed but it's also not easy when work has invaded your home and you can't really go anywhere for a change of scenery.

It s not really an us and them but surely people can appreciate that those working are entitled to time off in priority to those not and that people who aren't working should be taking leave as normal even if that doesn't suite their agenda? In normal circumstances in my house we weren't always able to take our holidays at the same time for work or childcare reasons.

but it's also not easy when work has invaded your home and you can't really go anywhere for a change of scenery

I have been surprised by how much this has affected me actually. We are really short on space so my desk is set up in my bedroom and I get that anxious feeling whenever I walk in there now

Spud I'm on furlough but I think you're BU. You always have the option of going away without your husband. These are unprecedented times and we all need to make sacrifices. I'm a single parent, I'd like a foreign holiday too, but if I need to take my AL during furlough then so be it. This is life right now.

@Waxonwaxoff0 That's not what I was saying.
I wrote it in defence of everyone still working.
Plenty of people work harder than me.

Why should I go away without him? Is he undeserving of a holiday or spending time with his wife just because he has been furloughed?