To avoid T or T by turning my phone off when out

[pontypridd]

Pissed off with hypocrisy of government.

I’m playing by the rules and still properly social distancing so there’s no way I’m self isolating for 2 weeks if they call me.

Can turning phones off when out avoid being radarred?

squeekums when I say this is how other countries have got out of this, I’m not talking about an app. They’re not launching an app here (yet, maybe later). I’m talking about contact tracing.

I will be using my common sense.

If Bob from accounts gives me a bell and says, I just came down with covid symptoms and we were in a meeting all Monday afternoon, then I will self isolate for 14 days from that meeting or until Bob tests clear.

If someone phones up and tells me I've been in contact with someone but they won't tell me who or when, then I won't be doing anything. This mystery person may be mistaken, or got their dates muddled, or may be just plain malicious. And as the T&T worker said up thread, they've just taken in a lot of training, are tired and can make mistakes - I want to know that I am at risk before I give up my civil liberties.

I think one of the key questions that went unaswered yesterday was also - when can they guarantee test results within 24 hours. Otherwise, every anyone in your fammily has a cough or a temperature, you will need to test and isolate until the test results come back. For some people at the moment, that is 10 days.

so, sick, then test (that will take a couple of days) then wait for results, the FINALLY start contact tracing, by the time you do that most of the contacts who caught it from you will have already infected someone else.

My other big question is public transport. If I take the tube, I cannot keep 2 m away from people, but I cannot pass their details on to the track and tracers. In order for this to work, they need to insist on masks on public transport.

@steppemum thank you for your post. I hope people read it and stop being hysterical.

I also hope more people realise this system is all we have to begin to put an end to the misery so many people are living with. Prolonging this misery in order to make a political statement is awful. Yes it's an effective political statement, but at what cost. It's sickening that so many people feel it's a worthwhile cost and IMO puts them in the same camp as DC.

I think the other point that is getting lost is that you only need to self isolate if the person you were incontact with was closer than 2m and longer than 15 minutes.

So, if I work in a shop, I might serve 100 people during a day. Then I get sick. But I wasn't in contact with any of those people closer than 2 m for longer than 15 m, so they do not need to be traced.

I visited my Granny and sat in the garden at 3 m apart for the afternoon. She does not need to self isolate.

I am a carer and use PPE, none of my patients need to self isolate

and so on.

Theoretically, what is someone names a contact, but the contact denies meeting with that person?

Could someone maliciously (pp mentioned hanging out at DCs house for 20mins then having a test😂) name someone and would they then be forced to isolate despite no proved contact?

By the same token, could a genuine contact simply deny there was contact and continue in the community without isolating?

OP, the current contact tracing in the UK has nothing to do with the app.
It's like what went on at the start of the outbreak in Germany.
When someone tests positive, they make a list of all the people who they have been in close contact with during the period in which they were infectious. Real people go through the list, phoning up those who are likely to have caught CV off the person who tested positive.
This method is not expected to catch every single case, but in Germany, it was pretty effective at consderably reducing the number of cases.

Op, your an idiot. They will only tell you if someone has been in contact with you has tested positive. And switching off your phone wont help, unless you keep it off forever

However what you suggest is the height of irresponsibility, that you could possibly have Covid and continue on your daily business and spread it to others, you really think that’s acceptable?

I think the other point that is getting lost is that you only need to self isolate if the person you were incontact with was closer than 2m and longer than 15 minutes.

This is one of my concerns with T&T, the fact that people don't understand this. Some people don't get it, and won't get it even when explained and will give duff information to T&T. If T&T aren't able to tell the contacts who they have been in contact with, they have no way of disputing contact.

Eg Uncle Jim says, yes, I've been in contact with User. I have no opportunity to say, yes I did see Uncle Jim, but for two minutes from a safe distance when I dropped his shopping off and I never went into the house.

This is one of my concerns with T&T, the fact that people don't understand this

Given the shocking amount of misunderstanding on this thread, I agree.

The app, when it arrives, will work in exactly the same as the current contact tracing. Which is that ... if I had the app, was TESTED POSITIVE for Covid (not just got symptoms) and had been in the hairdressers with one of you on here, the hairdresser would get a call or a text (when it gets more sophisticated), you would get a call or text as would every other customer. My name wouldn't be mentioned. It would just say 'when you were in Cut Your Fringe on Wednesday someone else was there at the same time who has now tested positive for Covid, you should now isolate for 14 days'. But you have to have the app downloaded and bluetooth on in order for my phone to link to yours so you then come in under my contacts for that day. Otherwise you're on your own and no better or worse off than you are at the moment. Of course, if you're allowed to visit friends and family by that time and you have caught Covid from my contact with you, your parents or your best mate may well catch it from you. And, of course, it can work the other way round. If your friend hasn't downloaded it and visits you having been in the hairdressers with me, then your risk goes up.

There's a scientist and a soon to be working contact tracer on Nicky Campbell's breakfast programme on 5Live at the moment. If you want to listen again you'll need to go about 15 minutes into the programme to pick it all up.

BTW it is only you (the contact) who will have to isolate. The rest of the family in the household won't unless you start showing signs, then normal 14 days family isolation applies.

Will you be back on here complaining when you get Covid-19?

@PicsInRed

Theoretically, what is someone names a contact, but the contact denies meeting with that person?

Could someone maliciously (pp mentioned hanging out at DCs house for 20mins then having a test😂) name someone and would they then be forced to isolate despite no proved contact?

By the same token, could a genuine contact simply deny there was contact and continue in the community without isolating?

Indeed. So many questions.

Also, my friend works in my local Sainsburys. She says there is minimal SD between staff, it is just impossible. In an average fortnight she would come into contact with maybe 70% of the stores staff.

So if just one person gets the virus, your local supermarket could well have to shut down for two weeks.

Once people realise this there are some who will start stockpiling again.

As @LondonJax wrote
Otherwise you're on your own and no better or worse off than you are at the moment

However, people need to bear in mind that all of society is also going to be no better or worse off than they are at the moment, or at least, than they were before the easing of lockdown started a couple of weeks ago.

If you want to go back to lockdown, and perhaps a more severe lockdown, don't work with the contact tracing system. It's your choice. (OK it depends on the choices the majority make.)

The system could also be misused by those who hate their jobs and would rather be isolated for two weeks.

Just tell your mates to list you as a contact if they have a test.....

It's so open to abuse! Plenty of hated Bosses and OW will be getting those calls

as you are on mumsnet , over the internet , via your IP you have already given the government huge amounts of Info, the fact you're on the net will mean they have access to your entire browsing history, location, passwords, bank details etc etc etc. this isnt going to change much for you
I know this wasnt to me but I'd like to reply,

I didnt sign up to mumsnet or anywhere else with my real name or address. I use a VPN to hide my whereabouts and crucially I don't do online banking or anything like that on one device.
If i need to buy something online i use a different device that doesn't use anything to hide its whereabouts.

For the tracers on here, will I be getting a sick note through the post or would I have to contact my dr for one? Just thinking if (general) you cant prove you've had a call or not, you can ask dr for a sick note if you want an extra 2 weeks off.

In an average fortnight she would come into contact with maybe 70% of the stores staff.

so, how many of those interactions were 15 minutes or longer?

If you are standing talking to a manager or at a meeting, then you can be proactive about the 2m.

I think that there will be fewer people than we think

Theoretically, what is someone names a contact, but the contact denies meeting with that person?

I'd like to know more about this. If DH gets a phone call advising contact, it would be bullshit. He's been shielding since mid-April and I'm the only person he's had contact with. Then what? DH won't be told who gave his details out and presumably the 'infected' person gets off scott free for giving out fake information.

With the threat already having been made of the scheme becoming mandatory, this is a major red flag for me. It's wide open to abuse by the spiteful and malicious and we know they're not in short supply.

So a really really good thing about this is it's got everyone/will get everyone thinking more carefully about maintaining social distancing, at work, at the shops, wherever. Result!

I bet there's a better technological way of doing it (although it starts to sound very sci-fi).

Some sort of button that everybody carried that emits and receives signals at ~2m. If it picks up the same signal continuously for 15+ mins, it logs it.

Then at the end of the each day, you 'transfer' the data to a website by entering your button's code. If somebody then becomes infected it appears in your portal the next time that you've been in contact with an infected person and must self-isolate. It could stay anonymous then, and not actually track where you were.

I expect it would be far too expensive, but if the government do take it up, I expect to be on the patent.

@Bananabixfloof VPNs leak and can be hacked.
but not sure what you mean by this bit

"If i need to buy something online i use a different device that doesn't use anything to hide its whereabouts"

so you're saying you still use a device with your details presumably address/name/bank details. .?

Unless there is guarantee of financial help for the self employed if quarantined, I will not be giving permission for track and trace on my phone - I'll leave it at home when I go out, if necessary.
I have business overheads that have to be paid regardless (premises rent), the government have not permitted businesses like mine to reopen (dance school) which means that I am earning a fat zero - my customers do not want online classes and will not pay for them. Once I am able to go back to work I will most likely be earning a fraction of what I did previously, due to likely restrictions on class sizes. This is not a personal affront to those who are shielded, I'm just not in a financial situation to manage with virtually no income (single parent) and without assistance we would be in a dire situation. Selfish yes, for putting my own family first but I'm not willing to lose my home / starve by staying home with no income. I'm not even sure if I would be entitled to SSP being self employed, but £90 a week is not going to pay the rent on my business premises. I would make an exception if myself or any member of my household was showing symptoms and stay home in this circumstance, but I cannot quarantine based on a 'what if' without financial assistance.

Well aren’t you lovely.

You are the reason shielded people can’t even leave their house for a walk around their block, let alone go to a park.

I hope when you see people around you die or have long term lung complications you feel happy that you possibly added to spreading that infection to them.

Cherrystonetree was that at me or the OP?

I have members of my family who are shielded, it's an awful situation to be in and I fully sympathise.

But it's very easy to say that by not isolating for 2 weeks for no reason is keeping shielded people in - when isolating for 2 weeks (unlimited times on SSP) for possibly no reason will prevent people from putting food on the table.

Your anger should be directed at the government who have made massive failings in this area. By making it financially viable for those struggling to make ends meet to stay at home, they protect those shielded. People turning against each other deflects from the governments complete failings on that front. It shouldn't have to be a choice between feeding my kids and keeping a roof over my head, and protecting vulnerable people in our society (some of whom are much loved members of my family). Stop being angry at people who's backs are against the wall and are being forced to make these difficult decisions, and direct your anger towards the people who are forcing these impossible decisions.