To avoid T or T by turning my phone off when out

[pontypridd]

Pissed off with hypocrisy of government.

I’m playing by the rules and still properly social distancing so there’s no way I’m self isolating for 2 weeks if they call me.

Can turning phones off when out avoid being radarred?

I'm astounded by what I'm reading here. People suggesting that they are suspicious about this because "my degree encouraged me to think that way" as if we should be in awe of a paranoid spotty faced undergrad. Or equally as sad as sad "they wont have my data" whilst they are merrily plugged into Google, Twitter and Facebook! I personally don't use any of these services as I feel uncomfortable with the amount of personal data that is gathered. However I have no hesitation in engaging with Track and Trace on the grounds that the information gathered is purely a location based contact tree. Yes this is revealing about the individual but social media and free wifi access points largely do this already for profit! At least with this service you can easily understand the data being gathered and you can choose to stop if you wish. Whilst people should be aware of there own data footprint there are many more pressing threats to this that T&T including video analytics applied to the ever increasing amount of CCTV and the move to "cloud starage" of this footage. Perhaps take your tin foil hat off long enough to reduce the infection rate!

I think you've misunderstood the track pet of track and trace. It doesn't mean track everyone's individual movements, it means to be able to track the disease through contacts that people have named.

@peoplepleaser1

BBC are again now reporting that the whole household do not need to isolate if one member is named by someone who tests positive.

• from BBC 5 minutes ago.

Actual source www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52442754

@pontypridd

Just talked about this with DH. He says there no way he’ll download any App run by the Government. They’re so incompetent it’s likely to break the phone.

Sounds like the pair of you are well matched intellectually anyway.

I will maintain my own lockdown/social distancing/mask inside enclosed public spaces- I do care about the public, I do not believe this government does.
Not also participating in this half baked t&t, with more holes than Swiss cheese, will not impact the chances of me spreading virus.

I will also not be downloading the app once / if it becomes available, not because I have concerns regarding data but because it is the only option they have left me with to communicate my disgust with this government.

@RelapsedChocoholic

I will maintain my own lockdown/social distancing/mask inside enclosed public spaces- I do care about the public, I do not believe this government does. Not also participating in this half baked t&t, with more holes than Swiss cheese, will not impact the chances of me spreading virus.

I will also not be downloading the app once / if it becomes available, not because I have concerns regarding data but because it is the only option they have left me with to communicate my disgust with this government.

You do realise that it’s not a goverment thing. It’s public health England.

There's no comparison to sexual health clinics using a T&T system. If you're contacted about sexual health, you're not required to isolate in your home for 14 days while living on £94 a week (or less). How people cannot see that this could be a major problem really is beyond me - especially as this could happen repeatedly. Selfish? FFS, when did it become 'selfish' to want to go to work and earn money to support your family?

That last part wasn't aimed at the pp who mentioned sexual health, btw.

When social distancing restrictions are lifted, asking people to self-isolate for two weeks with no symptoms is crazy. People won't comply with this. They should get a test quickly and then fair enough to isolate if you test positive, otherwise go on your way.

NameChangedToProtect1 You're very inconsistent. Some people might think that you're 'sad' for not using Facebook and such because of data privacy concerns - but surely if you understand these concerns, you'll see why other people have reached similar conclusions about this tracking app.

I'm astounded by someone who sets up a caricature of those who disagree with them as sad, paranoid and spotty (?!) instead of actually engaging with their arguments.

OP, you may want to look into something like this: www.amazon.co.uk/Defender-Signal-Blocking-Pouch-RFID-black/dp/B07B3R5FLG?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

so let’s get this straight. All along people have been saying that test track and trace is the answer to removing lockdown. That without it there will be a second wave, that it needs to come into play because otherwise our economy is stuffed.

People uphold countries such as South Korea as examples where this system has worked, in fact was instrumental in the eradication of the original SARS outbreak.

So now test track and trace is coming into force, and people say they won’t do it?

So what? People want to stay in lockdown indefinitely? Go bankrupt when the furlow system ceases, because that cannot be sustained indefinitely?

And how will those people who say they refuse to self isolate feel when it transpires that someone they work with closely also refused to self isolate when they came into contact with someone who had been tested positive, and then tests positive a few days later meaning you have been put at risk?

And let’s be honest here, this has absolutely nothing to do with what DC did. People who are refusing to do it would likely be refusing to do it anyway. But now the DC argument has given them an excuse to hide behind whereas before they might not have said it for fear of looking like a bit of a twat.

Sounds like the pair of you are well matched intellectually anyway.
Nasty snide and uncalled for. Government IT projects in this country are hardly characterised by their outstanding success. More usually they end up in expensive failure with large sums given to private companies.

The whole problem with this T&T system, not including the app as it's not part of this at the moment, is its relying on the public to be honest.

They are hoping that people will "do their civic duty" and be honest, but we all know an element won't because they are just bloody minded. Reporting they have symptoms and have been around people when they haven't, people being contacted to say they have been around someone exhibiting the symptoms and them saying they haven't been out around anyone, so are not at risk.

The process unfortunately will be inaccurate because of this. I can't see how they can rely on this at all.

Many hate Dominic Cummings because of his actions
Are they prepared for the backlash from people when they refuse to take part in this
Whoops sorry I killed your mother but it was the politically the right this to do

I see they have different systems in Wales, Scotland and England. Which is crazy because surely there are many people who travel from one to the other for work etc.

@PhilCornwall1 you make very good points. However, I don't think the system has to be perfect for it to be sufficiently effective.

It's just not possible to design a system that isn't open to dishonesty and problems caused by people deliberately scamming it. Maybe ID cards, scanners, fines etc would help but that's not the type of system people want.

I think we need to forge ahead with the system we have. Hopefully kinks will be ironed out, and chances for people to not follow the guidelines will be minimised.

We can't just refuse to use it because it's not perfect. If it's good enough it will still help drive R down.

There will always be people who sadly deliberately won't cooperate, many people now see this as a an acceptable form of political protest. But the more people who see it for what it is- our best chance, our only chance of giving people their lives back, the closer we will be to beating it.

NELass public health england is “an executive agency of the Department of Health and Social Care“

Whilst they have operational autonomy they remain a government ‘department’

AlternativePerspective

Agree totally. The hypocrisy is outstanding.

If you really don't want to contemplate self isolating, then minimise your contact with other people unless you cannot for your job.

@Hohofortherobbers

They'll rethink this crap once they've shut down an entire A&E dept as 1 staff member tests positive and the rest of team, the xray staff, the EMU staff, porters, domestics and receptionist are off for a fortnight

Totally agree.

As a result of the above, this scheme will last about two weeks. Same applies to schools, care homes.

What about prisons?

"If you really don't want to contemplate self isolating, then minimise your contact with other people "

That is me. I'm not afraid of the virus. But being stuck at home for 2 weeks unable to exit the property upsets me enormously. I'll have to tell anyone who wants to meet in person why we can't. Won't be fun.... I hope there is a vaccine by end of 2021.

There is so much shocking misunderstanding on here.
I will say it again

1. THEY ARE NOT USING THE APP.

So just stop with all the 'I'm not downloading any app' comments.

You are NOT being asked to download an app.

1. Those who are saying - no-one is going to confess to breaking the rules and will they get fined for breaking the rules etc

This is about how to move forward OUT of lockdown. And it may be fine for you to go on socially distancing, and staying at home, but for most they are going to have to start leaving their houses and going out, work, school, shops etc eventually hairdressers, medical checks dentists.

This is about how we try and return to real life, and that will mean that while we social distance as much as we can, we cannot always do that (see the pp above about needing to dress their father's feet)

Can people really not see beyond the end of their own nose? In order for any sort of life to return, we have to find a way forward.

Yes it is not perfect (loads and loads of questions) but it would help if we stuck to what is actually happening and not some imaginary big brother scenario with an app which isn't actually being used at all.

At the moment the government app doesn’t work - once the phone goes to sleep the Bluetooth stops working on the app. We could just use the Apple and Google apps but NHS wanted the centralised data as it is more useful. But the Apple and Google apps which store the data on the phone won’t hand data to the government as that is the start of a very slippery slope.

I’m not against track and trace - it does seem the only logical way out of this but like all current government initiatives it is poorly thought out.
Firstly pay - there needs to be assurances that isolating will get proper pay and not statutory sick pay. That will be the biggest factor in getting people to comply. Unfortunately people aren’t going to comply if they can’t afford it. My work will not be able to afford to top up to full pay. People on SSP may not be able to pay rent or the mortgage, let alone food and bills.
Secondly - I don’t answer phone numbers I don’t know, my first instinct is how do I know who you say you are. Government Track and Trace will be no different. I would want a centralised number I can ring back and check. I did a quick google - couldn’t see one. They also need to publish what email addresses and text numbers they will be using. I’m not going to lose potentially 2 weeks salary because someone has phoned me up and said so and I have no means of checking who they are. Nor am I going to fill in a questionnaire via email with people’s personal details with an email address I can’t verify. There will be people already working out how to use this as a scam. Basic security that the government seems to have forgotten in a rush to get this out.

However I have written to my MP to point the above out to see if we can get some of the above remedied.

If this had been introduced a few weeks ago there would have been considerable support and even enthusiasm,

But the administration has squandered so much public goodwill - not just Cummings (which totally undermines ‘civic duty’ at the very core of Downing Street) - but the delays in general

Plus it’s a terrible idea to encourage the public to hand over personal information about their contacts to someone just because they ring and ask for it.

People need to verify who they are talking to, by ringing back to an officially published number, before handing over information.

If you really need to hand it over at all - the same effect can be had by telling people yourself. But the bureaucracy of this system might not be good at trusting people to do their duty. Which is completely understandable given the current governmental position on individual
instinct outweighing the following of government instruction

I do wonder if 14 days - when many people will get no pay (if it's their children isolating, if self employed, not eligible for ssp) or only SSP is maybe just too big an ask and a large number of people just won't comply.

Best data I've seen (there might be better!) estimates that 95% of people were symptomatic within 10 days of contact. You're supposedly most infectious 2-3 days before symptoms appear which would also mean you'd presumably have a high enough level of infection for a positive test at that point? So perhaps saying you self isolate for 7 days after last contact and then get tested, regardless of symptoms would be more realistic? It risks missing a few people who don't display symptoms until later but it's more likely to catch the asymptomatic people and it would seem more likely to be complied with

I'll have to tell anyone who wants to meet in person why we can't.

You can meet, but just not a) in closer contact than 2m AND b) for more than 15 minutes. As far as I’m aware from the BBC articles yesterday evening, those are the criteria for being contacted and told to self isolate for 14 days.

I am fortunate in that I can easily avoid both of those things, so I know that being contacted will either be malicious or a mistake.