More bashing of mumsnet

[Ikeasucks]

Why are orgs and businesses just capitulating to this bullying? mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1265201870437519360

I agree with pope here, I see how it could, for example, look dismissive if a 'new poster' asks 'whats the problem?' and instead of getting usual thoughtful replies, they are directed to the 'break it down for me' thread. For example. At one time, there were answers. Experience has taught many on the feminist boards that such posters are unlikely to be genuine newbies to the topic at all. If they are actually newbies, break it down for me explains any questions they might have anyway. If not, the goady fuckers are not getting the rise they want, which in theory should make them fuck right off, but in practice MRA bastards seem pretty relentless. Been going on for years, under different guises.

Of course, sometimes, the suspicion can fall on actual newbies to the topic, which is obviously unfortunate. But thats usually, again, made quite obvious early on, whereby sorrys are given, and its all fine. I don't think this is a regular occurance though, or hasn't been from what I have seen (though tbf I do tend to visit much more at night, which is when the midnight misogynists strike..) especially when compared to trolls acting innocent.

I do agree that the tone of some posts, posters or threads can seem dismissive, confrontational, or forceful etc to posters "just asking questions"

Yep. It's very easy to tell the genuine questioners from the goady ones by the way they react to being pointed to other threads that they can find answers on.

Any confrontational posts usually arise once the "questioners" are given thread links to look at instead of a personalised response. Genuine posters will go off and read. Goady ones wont.

If anyone is in any doubt, theres yet another fishing exercise going on in FWR..

Much of the time posters who try to challenge viewpoints are accused of saying things they have never said, of holding positions that they have never held

This happens the other way round as well

Im fed up of checking threads to see what someone actually said when it bears no relation whatsoever to what was reported

Ive had posts completely and utterly twisted and words put into my mouth that ive not said, implied or inferred

Outright lies

I don’t engage with those posters

If anyone is in any doubt, theres yet another fishing exercise going on in FWR..

Now deleted. Which will of course be 'trans positive thread deleted in FWR, see, bigoted mods!' rather than aknowledging that..it was clearly some TRA type who thought they had foud a gotcha for feminists, and got awfully caught up in their own trap. And broke guidelines quite a lot too so MN got sick..along with it clearly not being a genuine thread to start with.

Multiple times a day, that kind of thing^

there almost seems like a coordinated effort by multiple posters to drown out any dissenting views.

Well, the problem is that women can't win. If lots of women agree and all post giving their opinion then it's a pile on, women ganging up and being mean etc. so their opinion isn't valid. If just one woman posted making her point, she'd be accused of being a lone voice and having a minority view, so her opinion isn't valid. And if one person posted her thoughts and then a hundred others said 'I agree with her' they'd be accused of not having thought the issue through and just parroting the first poster's thoughts. So of course, their views aren't valid either.

So what we're left with is a situation where women's views are ignored no matter what, because there is always some reason why they aren't worth listening to.

Was going to ask which thread, but I guessed correctly.

Hmmm. On the one hand I’ve been told that I am hopelessly out of touch for saying GC is a fringe opinion. On the other hand you are all so, so angry, constantly railing against the many injustices of everyone who “buys into the lies” or bends to TRA pressure. The fact that there is so much pressure is because most people have a different viewpoint than you do. You are constantly shouting about this because you have an extreme position. I don’t need to waste my time arguing on MN because I’m not worried about it becoming mainstream. I put my efforts toward supporting the many many worthy causes who support what I believe in. I’ll acknowledge that your petty insults, condescension for opposing viewpoints and elaborate straw man arguments do wind me up but once I close this thread it won’t cross my mind again.

On the other hand you are all so, so angry, constantly railing against the many injustices of everyone who “buys into the lies” or bends to TRA pressure.

Erm not quite. Constant ralling against a select group of (male, usually) individuals who just troll here relentlessly and actually have groups that 'monitor' our conversations.

GC beliefs are not fringe. Opinion polls seem to back that up too, when its explained what each term actually means though, as you run into problems such as the general public think a transwoman is a female person who is trans, a transman.

you are all

Really? All?

so glad you decided to pop back, given that it never crosses your mind WhatExit

So we’re the Borg now.

Resistance is futile?

@WhatExit

Hmmm. On the one hand I’ve been told that I am hopelessly out of touch for saying GC is a fringe opinion. On the other hand you are all so, so angry, constantly railing against the many injustices of everyone who “buys into the lies” or bends to TRA pressure. The fact that there is so much pressure is because most people have a different viewpoint than you do. You are constantly shouting about this because you have an extreme position. I don’t need to waste my time arguing on MN because I’m not worried about it becoming mainstream. I put my efforts toward supporting the many many worthy causes who support what I believe in. I’ll acknowledge that your petty insults, condescension for opposing viewpoints and elaborate straw man arguments do wind me up but once I close this thread it won’t cross my mind again.

Yet you seem to feel the urge to waste your time on MN telling us you don't need to argue your case. Funny that.

GC beliefs are not fringe. Opinion polls seem to back that up too, when its explained what each term actually means

That doesn't surprise me at all tbh. Which just goes to show that the fact the mumsnet comes across as transphobic is likely less to do with the standard GC debate and more to do with what a PP said so eloquently earlier:

"thinly veiled contempt from a lot of posters on trans issues and little tolerance for those diverging from the commonly held views of the most vocal posters on the subject. The alternative voices that try to pipe up are often met with mockery and derision and there almost seems like a coordinated effort by multiple posters to drown out any dissenting views"

On a positive note, these accusations are the only reason I made an account. I wanted to join a community in which women's rights were taken seriously and permitted to be at least debated.

If we are so few and a fringe group, why the hostility, why the attempts to shut the site and us down?
Who is running scared of a few gc women?

Makes you laugh, so few of us but we're terribly frightening. Why not let the conversation carry on and leave us to our fringe thoughts. Unless someone is scared we have a point.

Horses, I don't follow that logic.
Most people who accuse MN of being transphobic (usually, as proven above, the same smallish circle of people who post a lot on Twitter, and I'd guess report posts here) don't hold GC views - they vehemently disagree with the "opinion" that there are two immutable sexes, for example.

Genuinely, have you spent any time on TRA Twitter? Properly read the threads in detail? Would you say that their views (Rad Fems deserve punching, there is no biological sex, etc) tend more towards the 'fringe' or mainstream?

As you so agree with the wording that you quoted, which posters would you identify as the most vocal, and could you summarise each of their views in a way that they'd agree were accurate? If you can't, would that perhaps indicate that you're not as au fait with the threads as you seem to think? I for one have been vocal about actively wanting someone with opposing opinions to engage in civil debate - so the polar opposite of the 'little tolerance' claimed. Either you don't include me as one of the FWR posters you are discussing or you are simply incorrect.

Fact: there are serious issues millions of people wish to discuss about the claims by the trans rights activists.
Fact: said activists are utterly determined to silence debate - the polar opposite of any of the true rights activists they wish to ape. If they had a case in fact and in reason they would be more than pleased to argue it in public, as feminists were and still are.

Most people who accuse MN of being transphobic (usually, as proven above, the same smallish circle of people who post a lot on Twitter, and I'd guess report posts here) don't hold GC views - they vehemently disagree with the "opinion" that there are two immutable sexes, for example

Oh I wasn't really talking about the Twitter "activists". More just the everyday average people who post on mumsnet in other areas of the site, as well as the people at the companies/organisations that bow to the Twitter pressure to cancel partnerships/ads. Although I'm not sure whether they actually visit the forum/read any posts before they do so..? Who knows.

As you so agree with the wording that you quoted, which posters would you identify as the most vocal, and could you summarise each of their views in a way that they'd agree were accurate? If you can't, would that perhaps indicate that you're not as au fait with the threads as you seem to think?

I've no idea. I don't take notes of usernames! It's just something that is very clear when I accidentally click onto one of the many trans threads that pop up on here.

I’ve been thinking (oh yes I have).

Now I have a pretty sheltered life these days, I suppose. I work on a small office, live in a ‘nice’ part of town, don’t use public transport very much, don’t go lining and clubbing, my gym is in a ‘genteel’ part of town etc. I grew up in Glasgow, was a student living in sarf London so I haven’t exactly lived in a bubble.

However, I have noticed that these days people are more ‘robust’ on the way they talk to each other, to shop assistants, at events, etc... people do seem to ‘debate’ more and spout nonsense on public (I’ve overheard so many ‘experts’ loudly giving the world the benefit of their knowledge on Covid-19, disease spread, politics, medicine etc, read crazy theories on Facebook and twitter, etc.).

Social media had broken some peoples filters! Keyboards have made people more likely to throw insults, threats and abuse - back in the day they would have written poison pen letters or yelled over the garden fence.

Mumsnet is very tame compared to other online communities. Some would make your eyes bleed. Even professional ones can be like the Wild West of an argument gets going.

There are more goady people here now than back on the day - but these are a hell of a lot more on here too. Plus dodgy publicity also attracts some people looking to pick a fight!

As I said - it’s a lot ‘nicer’ here than other places. I’ve only had a handful of horrible comments directed at me - and other posters have jumped in to defend or explain my comments. Most times we have DMed and made up. All very and grown up.

I haven’t seen death threats or nasty insults. I haven’t seen anyone ‘out’ anyone and encourage a like on. I haven’t seen comments like it know where your kids go to school’ or veiled threats of violence of ‘paying your a visit’.

But attacking a parenting site (which is mostly women) with the hope to ‘close or down’ should be seen for exactly what it is. Misogyny - planned and deliberate. If a sponsor of tow-in can’t see that and use their brains to wonder why this should be so, then they aren’t worth their salt. They should be calling this out, not emboldening those who want to close down discussion.

So can you actually identify what "the commonly held views of the most vocal posters on the subject" are? Are you talking about one or two posters, or 20 or 30, or hundreds? Do you not think it matters?

The "accuser" side posters in this thread have been so keen to talk in generalities but not in specifics (apart from talking about one or two threads whose message was very clearly mispresented). It makes it hard to be analytical and discuss individual points when the responses are just handwavy. You are talking about individual posters, not a homogenous lump - it's only fair to accurately represent their views if you're going to accuse them/us all of transphobia.

^(that was a crosspost to Horses)

You are talking about individual posters, not a homogenous lump - it's only fair to accurately represent their views if you're going to accuse them/us all of transphobia

I'm really not invested in it enough to know the usernames of individual posters. Shall I quote the PP again?

"thinly veiled contempt from a lot of posters on trans issues and little tolerance for those diverging from the commonly held views of the most vocal posters on the subject. The alternative voices that try to pipe up are often met with mockery and derision"

I don't see what about that statement suggests I need to know individual usernames. I just know that that is the impression I get from 90% of the trans threads I read on here. And clearly, based on the responses whenever these threads about whether transphobia is a problem on mumsnet come up, many other people have the same perception.

Ah, the old "a lot of people are saying "

Then mocking when literally any evidence is asked for, and my questions ignored.
That statement suggests you might actually know what you mean by 'the most vocal posters' and their 'commonly held views'. I was wrong to think that, clearly.

I didn't mock you...?

I don't even understand your point. It's perfectly fine to say you get a certain impression from a group of people or setting without needing to give specific examples. People do it all the time. If someone says "I find AIBU generally to be very rude" they don't need to post examples. That's their perspective, that's fine. It's also the perspective of many others.

I'm not sure why you're even getting so defensive. If you're not intolerant, don't hold thinly veiled contempt or whatever, then why does it bother you so much that my general perception of the forum is that many people are like that? It's just my opinion.