More bashing of mumsnet

[Ikeasucks]

Why are orgs and businesses just capitulating to this bullying? mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1265201870437519360

If it's not mental and it's not physical then what is it

Exactly...its one or the other surely

The NHS deals with physical issues and mental issues....there isn’t a third thing is there?

This is a logical fallacy. That something is not a mental health condition does not mean it is a choice.

Ok, I worded it badly because you're right that it's not a logical conclusion.

But where does logic come into it anyway? It's a logical fallacy to think that a male can know what it feels like to be a woman. But yet we're expected to accept that without question.

But where does logic come into it anyway? It's a logical fallacy to think that a male can know what it feels like to be a woman. But yet we're expected to accept that without question.

Indeed. Logic has left the building.

WHO and NHS disagree with you:

Yes, they responded to heavy TRA lobbying and institutional capture. It was a purely political decision. It remains in the DSM-5 though, both as the distressing psychological condition, gender dysphoria and transvestic fetishism (cross dressing). Your point being?

I still can't get my head round this whole trans thing. Where the hell did it all come from? Just glad I operate in an old fashioned straightforward world of male and female.

Yes, the NHS site refers to being assigned a sex at birth, so it's pretty hard to place any trust in the rest of what they say on the matter.

If the NHS and the WHO declared the world to be flat as a result of lobbying by flat earthers it wouldn't suddenly make it true.

The truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it.

And again, to the point on the thread, the definition of transgender and gender dysphoria is something that warrants debate because there is no clear answer. So why should the fact it’s discussed here on Mumsnet without automatically buying in to the propaganda of certain activists warrant a label of transphobia that leads to a union pulling support for women with employment issues?

The difference between the racist comments and the transphobic commenters though, is that the racist ones get challenged and they're not in the minority when they do so.

I have seen transphobic posts challenged, a lot. I have also seen, more recently, that those transphobic posts posted by brand new (and honestly, suspicious..give the second they post their bile its screenshotted and on twitter as proof of how vile we all are ) accounts tend to be just mass reported, and ignored. on the whole. Which honestly, I think is the best way when its quite obvious its a troll account. I would say the same if it was someone joining purely to spew racism..especially if there was a BAME section of the site (is there..I have no idea as theres literally loads of sections) and these racist twats mainly posted in there when they 'joined'..like the MRA/TRA types do. Its extremely rarely a longtime poster, and even more rarely a long time poster who frequents the feminism section. And when it is, its challenged, along with reported.

If a site quickly removes transphobic content, how on earth can it be claimed that the site is transphobic? Even if we were to take these brand new users posting actual transphobic posts as genuine new users, all that proves is that trnashobies join and post shite. If the site left such transphobia standing, then yes, it could easily be argued that the site is transphobic. But people use 'transphobic posts are deleted quickly' as a way to somehow prove the site is transphobic?! Bizarre and nonsensical really.

The misrepresentation of threads in feminism is quite silly too, people can read the threads themselves you know? I know the theory is, say it enough and some will believe it..but its a ridiculous way to 'prove' anything tbh. The 'people said a crime committed by a woman has to be a transwoman as a woman wouldnt do it' turning out to actually be 'papers seem to be reporting male crimes as female crimes yet again, yes a woman could do this in theory, but its largely a male type crime and given previous experience, the press are not above this nonsense' is just..weird. Especially when linking the thread to 'prove it' when the thread says the opposite of what was claimed.jusy..odd behaviour. But each to their own I guess

In short, I would be interested in finding out quite how the fact that transphobia is quickly deleted, proves the site is transphobic. If anything, I would ay the opposite. Some anon users are transphobic, but they are removed almost immediately. Because mumsnet does not tolerate actual transphobia. Mind, if you are one of those who reckon even acknowledging that males and females are different things..or that stereotypes are masively important and should be followed else theres a problem, then yeah, I can see why you see transphobia everywhere on here. But really, a site that has a large focus on having/bringing up children and such, will generally acknowledge the role of biology in life, you know? Along with mums knowing kids are into everything, and stereotypes matter not one jot. Maybe, if you focus such importance on stereotypes and such, or wish to claim that changing sex is actually possible and anyone who disagrees is a nasty bigot, somewhere like this is quite likely to upset you..

trnashobies

Seem to have made up a new word there, thats a typo on another level really...

And again, to the point of the thread, even IF some posters here wanted to keep women barefoot and pregnant, and even IF the batshit crazy views of what GC “ideology” is, and even IF it’s just a vocal fringe minority, does any of that mean that GMB should abandon its plans to support women with their employment concerns?

Also yes to this. This is much better than my random essay tbh..this really is the point of the matter. Assuming TRAs on twitter are right and theres a load of transphobes and transpobia goes unchallenged and left up all the time, etc etc. Are they really claiming EVERY woman here is transphobic?

Thats before you even get to the question of, even if some women are transphobic, does this mean they do not deserve advice in employment issues due to covid? I know the answers to that will be wildly varying.

I actually cannot believe a union bowed to bullying so quickly. It really des not imspire confidece in them tbh.

@NotBadConsidering

And again, to the point on the thread, the definition of transgender and gender dysphoria is something that warrants debate because there is no clear answer. So why should the fact it’s discussed here on Mumsnet without automatically buying in to the propaganda of certain activists warrant a label of transphobia that leads to a union pulling support for women with employment issues?

I think that it's the overarching tone on a lot of the threads discussing transgender issues that will make some organisations think twice.

There's often thinly veiled contempt from a lot of posters on trans issues and little tolerance for those diverging from the commonly held views of the most vocal posters on the subject. The alternative voices that try to pipe up are often met with mockery and derision and there almost seems like a coordinated effort by multiple posters to drown out any dissenting views. Much of the time posters who try to challenge viewpoints are accused of saying things they have never said, of holding positions that they have never held, and the end result is often threads that probably just look very poor, to, say, a PR manager for an organisation that is looking to protect it's reputation in business relationships.

Now, none of this might actually constitute transphobia, I'm not sure - but it may be that it might be enough for some organisations to not want to take the risk of being associated with mumsnet, especially if they have been lobbied on this point. And people can ask for evidence of transphobia all they like, and yeah that will have been taken down, or will be challenged as not actual evidence of transphobia, but the difficulty is there is still an image problem.

It looks like it has become a salient issue, previously in the news etc, so for lazy companies not doing their own research it is easy to find all of this and shudder.

And in comparison to say Facebook or Twitter, the percentage of posts on this issue out of overall content is probably a lot higher, so that makes it more salient as a feature of this site as well. Now that might only be 0.1% of all posts on the board (obviously I don't know, vague guess), but if fractious discussion of transgender issues only constitutes 0.00001% of all posts on facebook or twitter, that is still 10,000 x greater, and so it's not an issue so readily associated with those platforms.

there almost seems like a coordinated effort by multiple posters to drown out any dissenting views

I do kinda of understand where people are coming from when they say this. Having a minority opinion often results in what seems like attacks, when multiple people challenge it. It happens on near all topics, especially in AIBU though!

The thing is, go back maybe 5 years, and this was entirely the other way around. Anyone who brought up concerns was roundly challenged and had say 20 replies to their 1 post. This changed slowly over time as more understood the concerns, and now its flipped entirely. (This is ignoring that there are so so many 'new members' who post specifically to troll..again. The faux 'I know nothing about the topic, whats up'..that almost always culminates in a ranty post with multiple TRA talking points along with misogynistic insults. The reason many are skeptical wih naive posts..) Its kind of the nature of a discussion board. I know people can take this to heart too, as my very first post on here was a resounding 'YABU' with a whole load of comments, some OTT insults tbh, but some just criticizing me..and I stopped posting for a while because of it!

However, this 'posters try to drown out dissenting voices on the trans topic' just don't really hold up when its the same on any topic is you take the view thats against the majority (of those posting on the thread, not necessarily in general)

I think it tends to be a bit more forceful on threads covering trans issues than in other threads though.

And it probably won't sway organisations looking to partner or advertise with mumsnet if you tell them 'You should advertise with us because the bullying happens on ALL of mumsnet, not just the trans threads!'

You should advertise with us because the bullying happens on ALL of mumsnet, not just the trans threads!'

Ha. True enough

I wouldn't call it bullying tbh. More..robust disagreement. Its actually my main love about this site, and why I eventually ended up staying once my skin toughened somewhat! Sometimes it does cross the line into bullying, especially on AIBU but mods are pretty decent at sorting that too I think.

I also wouldn't agree that its more forceful on trans threads either. Imagine posting on a Cummings thread right now stating you did not think he should be sacked. Regardless of your why..I figure a hard time would be given. Such is the nature of minority opinions, on any topic. Though of course, more current topics, and more emotive topics will get stronger reactions from people, naturally. A Tory posting on a Corbyn love in thread would get ravaged mre than someone posting they hate anything coconut on a thread about bounties!

But I guess its different strokes for differetn folks. My experience is not necessarily going to be the universal one.

Twitter makes this place look like a teddy bears picnic.

But the fools have been told that this is the place to attack, so attack they must.

Mumsnet organisers should probably ask if it's possible to see the correspondence that GMB have received from people telling them it is transphobic, and then at least they can see the basis (or lack of it) for the claims and try to challenge decisions made.

It could presumably be anonymised so that it is inline with GDPR, but maybe GMB would still have to ask for permission from those people to send it on, I don't know.

As long as men are looking to silence women for telling the truth, they'll be attacking MN.

If they are taking 'waaahhhhhhhhhh' and 'I say so' as evidence they they need to just close down.

If they are taking 'waaahhhhhhhhhh' and 'I say so' as evidence they they need to just close down.

Honestly, I think I would prefer them accepting 'waaaaaah' rather than accepting the usual type of posts that show up for 'proof of transphobia' on here tbh. Literally just posts saying females have a right to spaces away from males, etc. Thats the usual bar for the monitors. Depressing as fuck really.

Mumsnet organisers should probably ask if it's possible to see the correspondence that GMB have received from people telling them it is transphobic, and then at least they can see the basis (or lack of it) for the claims and try to challenge decisions made.

Thats a great idea actually, and might be a way to pave the way forward somewhat. Especially if it does turn out that the posts are only transphobic to those who see transphobia literally everywhere. Which given past experience, I think is most likely. IF there is actual transphobia, which has been left undeleted then MN could use the incidence as a kind of training excercise in a way, and make sure such transphobia is never left viewable again. Everybody wins?

And in comparison to say Facebook or Twitter, the percentage of posts on this issue out of overall content is probably a lot higher, so that makes it more salient as a feature of this site as well
Naw that wont wash.
Facebook has 2.45 billions of users, Twitter has 330 million.

Even though I love mumsnet, it's not got anywhere near those numbers.
Also as said previously just wander around fb and tw and the shite comes to you, you dont have to go looking.
On here you actually have to go looking for the bit you need.

@suggestionsplease1

I think it tends to be a bit more forceful on threads covering trans issues than in other threads though.

And it probably won't sway organisations looking to partner or advertise with mumsnet if you tell them 'You should advertise with us because the bullying happens on ALL of mumsnet, not just the trans threads!'

Have you ever been on Aibu? It's just pile on after pile on.

If they dont want to advertise fine, we can boycott them longer than they are around.
If they lose 12 million users or thereabouts, who fault is that.

Thats a great idea actually, and might be a way to pave the way forward somewhat. Especially if it does turn out that the posts are only transphobic to those who see transphobia literally everywhere. Which given past experience, I think is most likely. IF there is actual transphobia, which has been left undeleted then MN could use the incidence as a kind of training excercise in a way, and make sure such transphobia is never left viewable again. Everybody wins?

Good idea.

Look, I do agree that the tone of some posts, posters or threads can seem dismissive, confrontational, or forceful etc to posters "just asking questions" or dipping their toes in the water, or who word their posts using odd or lazy or unthinking terminology. I really do. I did find it difficult when i first posted on here asking people what they had against trans people. On the flipside, I know my own posts might seem wishy-washy, naive or too overly attempting to be even-handed to some long-standing posters who would prefer to dismiss some of the perceived goady posts from the off.

I haven't been here that long but once you've spent even a tiny bit of time on here it's crystal clear why that is. The attempts to derail, disrupt, pick lazy fights on the same points over and over, fish for screenshots, all while showing zero willingness to actually engage, discuss, put forth genuine points of view are like nothing I've seen in other forums. It's genuinely tiring to have to patiently start from the basics each time for people that have no interest in listening. We've lost loads of good posters, including ones who had differing views but still managed to effectively engage with each other. This is why some repeat lazy goaders just get ignored.