Expats or Immigrants?

[Letsleepingfrogslie]

Uurrgh! Seen this too many times and it bugs me.

Apparently every British person is an expat in another country (though I hardly hear that said about those in the U.S) but other people are always classed as immigrants in the UK.

Even uncle Bob and auntie Sue who're retired and have emigrated gone to live in rural Spain, soak in the sun and drink all day are expats but those who've moved to this country are just immigrants?

Have just googled meaning of expat and it says "A person who lives outside their native country". Funnily enough, the example is of a "British expat". In that case, those who call every family member living in another country 'expat' are correct but it also means every so called immigrant is an expat then? So why do we call them immigrants, not expats? Is there something so special about us that we can't use the word immigrant to describe ourselves or family members who've emigrated to another country to live?

On another hand, I always thought 'Expat' described those who are in a country solely to work (Think British employee working in a company's branch in a different country). They're not there to "live" and the UK is their base, not the country they work in. They're on working visas, have no other ties to that other country besides just working there, living in company-owned flats, etc but this isn't what I see when people throw the word expat around especially here on MN (although from google, they're correctly using the word).

A lot of "immigrants" fit this description too (working visas, here to work and their country is their base) but since they're from elsewhere, they also get lumped in the 'lowly immigrant' category.

So what is it? Immigrants or Expats or different categories depending on where you're from, socio-economic class, etc?

What am I missing?

Immigrants move to a country and accept it as their country. Expats move to a country but carry on as if they haven’t left their home country. Ime British tend to do the latter so it’s not wrong to refer to them as expats.

It is. It's construction

Engineering is not blue collar. You can have white collar type jobs in construction. There’s a big difference between the unskilled labourers and licensed tradesmen on the site and the architects and engineers that require degrees.

No one considers engineering a blue collar job. It’s one of the professions.

Polish expats

They absolutely are expats, and it makes sense to refer to the "Polish expat community" for simplicity and clarity, but it still hits my ears very strangely to call someone from a different country to oneself an expat. I think of "expatriate" as having a strong relationship to "compatriot", although I'm basing this off of actual linguistic use rather than any established connection.

I suppose these hidden "rules" just develop from using a word for decades. I'm tempted to ask in one of my expat boards and see what other people who use the word regularly think.

The idea of "expat" having a time limit or becoming null after gaining permanent residency is a non-starter to me. It simply means people who have left their home country. To Americans back home, I will always be an expat -- it would be very odd to say, "No, no, I was an expat but now that I've got ILR I'm an immigrant.

However, I completely agree that there's a public and often racist distinction between the "right kind" and "wrong kind" of immigrants, and people often forget the "right kind" are immigrants too. I've had several encounters (including the guy conducting my driving test!) where someone has gone on and on about immigrants and all the damage they're doing to this country. When I point out that I'm an immigrant too they're not even embarrassed because it's so obvious to them that I'm not part of the group they mean. It's so unpleasant, but I suppose it works the same way for Brits in the US. Despite the long years of history it seems many Americans and Brits still view themselves as two sides of the same coin.

Thankfully they're not, in practice. I would gladly stop using expat and start calling myself a refugee instead if it means I never have to go back to the US.

I knew you'd hold on the engineering bit. They've said so themselves, its field work, manual work all day. It's not white collar anymore than those working in construction here are in white collar roles. But since you know better than the actual people in their roles and you're in charge of giving out titles, I concede.

They absolutely are expats, and it makes sense to refer to the "Polish expat community" for simplicity and clarity, but it still hits my ears very strangely to call someone from a different country to oneself an expat

It depends on your situation. In the Gulf, the expat community is very mixed so it is absolutely divided into expat (white-collar professional types) and migrant workers (blue-collar labourers). So it is very natural for me to refer to other nationalities as expats. I don’t actually know many other Americans but do have loads of Indian, British, Southeast Asian expats in my social circle.

The idea of "expat" having a time limit or becoming null after gaining permanent residency is a non-starter to me. It simply means people who have left their home country. To Americans back home, I will always be an expat -- it would be very odd to say, "No, no, I was an expat but now that I've got ILR I'm an immigrant

It’s kind of unique to America though? I’m one myself and the tax situation definitely highlights how we are never really not American. It’s actually quite expensive and troublesome to divest yourself of American citizenship.

I knew you'd hold on the engineering bit. They've said so themselves, its field work, manual work all day. It's not white collar anymore than those working in construction here are in white collar roles

Do you have to get a degree to do this work? Does it require professional expertise? It doesn’t matter if it’s outdoor (like a geologist or oil engineer). Lots of professions require field work, including academics. They are not blue collar by any means.

I mean, do you even use the term blue collar in the UK? Because absolutely we’d never refer to engineers as blue collar.

@ElephantsAlltheWayDown Glad you acknowledge that there are the "right kind" and "wrong kind" of immigrants, it happens all too often here and I know in the US too. Those who claim to not know what others are talking about when they mention this are oblivious at best.

I'd like to see your "fans" now, hope they're still loyal

I'm interested in the outcome of the "engineer" debate. I also think "engineer" is a white-collar job that requires a four to five year degree and lots of university level mathematics. But I'm aware that many job titles in the UK include "engineer" where these criteria aren't met.

I would agree those people aren't engineers, even if that's what they call themselves.

I mean, if you clean toilets and your job title is "sanitation engineer", then I would politely refer to you as a "sanitation engineer" if some context required me to mention your job title. But if someone who'd half-overheard your job title in a noisy pub asked me if you were an engineer, I would say no.

It’s kind of unique to America though? I’m one myself and the tax situation definitely highlights how we are never really not American. It’s actually quite expensive and troublesome to divest yourself of American citizenship.

I was thinking about this. We have to put a lot of energy and time (and sometimes money) towards "being" US citizens, despite living abroad. I'm curious to know other nationalities feel about it. What's it like to be an expat without the IRS hanging over your head?

I'd like to see your "fans" now, hope they're still loyal.

I never manage to hang on to fans for more than five minutes. kicks dirt

I never manage to hang on to fans for more than five minutes. kicks dirt grin

Ha! Love that😄

You'll most likely get more, you seem quite good at it. P.S I'm 'kinda sorta' one now too for different reasons though

Op - I think if you genuinely want to understand why the terms are used “in the UK by the British” and what is meant by them, you should just ask those people you claim used such terms. It sounds a bit like you are being racist with your “British people say this” and “white people” say that. Many have explained the general difference in meaning between the words but you seem to only want to see the world in black and white terms.

Well hang on, @CayrolBaaaskin, it's not racist for the OP to ask if people use a term in racist ways. If a British person would only use "expat" to refer to white, wealthy immigrants, then that is an example of racism. I think that's part of what OP was trying to establish. Are all immigrants expats or just some of them? If just some, who and why?

I think that's part of what OP was trying to establish.Are all immigrants expats or just some of them? If just some, who and why?

Exactly. Thanks @ElephantsAll. You've put it as succinctly as I could never manage to do. Although I'd add that I started off with it being more about socioeconomic factors but others added their experience with race, so of course race/ethnicity usually plays a part in these things.

E.g: white British/American immigrant (expat), white Romanian or Polish immigrant of the same status (immigrant),

Asian doctor (expat) but someone else in a "lower" profession (immigrant or migrant worker) - as someone else mentioned,

White British immigrant (expat) but an/a Asian British, Black British, other British ethnic minority immigrant of the same status (immigrant or British worker/citizen overseas),

poor ethnic minority immigrant (immigrant), rich ethnic minority immigrant (immigrant or highly skilled immigrant),

poor white immigrant (expat), rich white immigrant (diplomat 😄)

Seriously though, I've understood this is completely nuanced, not always straightforward and can take ages to unravel the different factors and reasons behind it on a case by case basis (a lot of which and in a way I didn't include in my little oversimplified list there) but some people would rather do anything else - shut you down, say you're being racist, say you're making things about race for no reason, ignore the very ones who've stated their experience, ignore other factors you've pointed out or insist on picking apart one word, etc - than look objectively at what you're pointing at. Completely oblivious at best.

And....I've also understood and agreed with a few here who've made posts like this one below, but leave it to some to conveniently miss those posts and hold on to what they want.

An immigrant is someone who comes to a country to live permanently. An emigrant is someone who goes to a country to live permanently. An expat is someone who currently lives outside their native country. So all immigrants and emigrants are expats, but not all expats are immigrants/emigrants and one person can be all three simultaneously. Until they become citizens in their new country they are foreigners and aliens, and they may be legal or illegal.