Expats or Immigrants?

[Letsleepingfrogslie]

Uurrgh! Seen this too many times and it bugs me.

Apparently every British person is an expat in another country (though I hardly hear that said about those in the U.S) but other people are always classed as immigrants in the UK.

Even uncle Bob and auntie Sue who're retired and have emigrated gone to live in rural Spain, soak in the sun and drink all day are expats but those who've moved to this country are just immigrants?

Have just googled meaning of expat and it says "A person who lives outside their native country". Funnily enough, the example is of a "British expat". In that case, those who call every family member living in another country 'expat' are correct but it also means every so called immigrant is an expat then? So why do we call them immigrants, not expats? Is there something so special about us that we can't use the word immigrant to describe ourselves or family members who've emigrated to another country to live?

On another hand, I always thought 'Expat' described those who are in a country solely to work (Think British employee working in a company's branch in a different country). They're not there to "live" and the UK is their base, not the country they work in. They're on working visas, have no other ties to that other country besides just working there, living in company-owned flats, etc but this isn't what I see when people throw the word expat around especially here on MN (although from google, they're correctly using the word).

A lot of "immigrants" fit this description too (working visas, here to work and their country is their base) but since they're from elsewhere, they also get lumped in the 'lowly immigrant' category.

So what is it? Immigrants or Expats or different categories depending on where you're from, socio-economic class, etc?

What am I missing?

Josie's explanation is the technically correct one.
Traditionally, expats move to another country to either support themselves financially (the Costa del Sol pensioners etc) or are "sent" abroad by their home-based company. There tends to be some kind of "package" (flights, health insurance, schools for the kids) included.

Over the years people have adopted the word to mean the same as immigrant but they think it sounds better.

My friend is in an international school in the Middle East. She was recruited from the UK and is paid in sterling. Her accommodation is paid for. Her contract is for so many years. She's an expat.

I am in Italy and got my job here. I'm paid in euro. I'm permanently here. I'm an immigrant.

Alien was first used for non-natives before it was used for little green men.

I always thought Expat was temporary and where your immigration status is tied to a specific job. Immigrant to me implies a permanent move. Our visas to live in the US specifically says ‘non-immigrant’ because we are not permanent residents and do not have the right to stay here long term. So I’d call my self an expat or a temporary worker and I’d use both terms interchangeably.

Bovary X
Your ignorance is on display.

I do not think I am ignorant in this matter at all. I have lived in 4 countries (France, USA, UK, and China).

It's the difference between a permanent residence and a temporary residence, usually dependent on employment. They are not immigrants.

Not the case at all. They ARE immigrants. Even the U.K. Home office calls both those who immigrate temporarily and permanently “immigrants”. Look it up. Students, migrant workers on different length visas, visiting forces, people joining British family, all are counted in the figures of immigrants and have to get immigration visas.

It's not grammar. It's lexis and semantics. And the shift in the semantics (and throw the negative connotation that the word "migrant" now holds into the mix as well) of the words push them into sociolinguistics.

It is all English grammar about whether the person is coming IN to or going OUT of your country

@PlanDeRaccordement

You are wrong. Immigration is a permanent relocation to another country. There are millions of people working across the world who are experts because they have no permanent citizenship. African workers in China. Norwegian workers in Baku. Venezuelan workers in Aberdeen. You don't know what you're talking about.

When I worked at the Home Office (Immigration and Nationality) we still had some old cases which had their "alien status" files.

expats

They ARE immigrants

@PlanDeRaccordement

No. They are not. African workers in China are not immigrants. Asian workers in the Middle East are not immigrants. Millions of people are working as expats in countries where they have no right to remain without an employment visa. Your assertions are false.

Bovary X
I’m sorry but not all immigration is a permanent relocation to another country. It is to go and reside there for study, work, or to settle. For example the U.K. tier 2 worker visas are 30 months long (not permanent). And yes, it is called “immigration for work” and the workers are called “immigrants”.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-year-ending-september-2019/why-do-people-come-to-the-uk-to-work

Also students, who only come to get degree(s) and then go back home
www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-year-ending-september-2019/why-do-people-come-to-the-uk-to-study

Etc.
If I don’t know what I’m talking about, then neither does the U.K. Home Office?

Give up Bovary X,
Or shall I start posting links in French and Chinese that also show your definition of immigration as only being a permanent relocation is wrong?

Why are you continuing to talk about the UK? @PlanDeRaccordement? We are discussing the meaning of immigrant. Do you not understand that millions of people across the globe are working as expats? Why are you ignoring the situation for expat Asian workers and African workers beyond Europe? How very parochial of you.

@PlanDeRaccordement

You can post what you like. But you are talking nonsense when you claim that the millions of expat workers beyond the West have immigration status. When their work visas are cancelled, they leave.

Bovary X
I am using U.K. links that show the English words of “immigrant” used in context to support the fact of what the term “immigrant” means which is any person not of a country, coming IN to that country.

Do you not understand that millions of people across the globe are working as expats? Why are you ignoring the situation for expat Asian workers and African workers beyond Europe? How very parochial of you.

Those people are only expats from the perspective of their home country. To the country they are working in, they are classed as immigrants who have immigrated IN for work and that is why they are on VISAS.

Immigration status is not a permanent status. It is that you are either a legal immigrant or an illegal immigrant. Legal immigrants have VISAS that typically have a FIXED TERM, they are NOT PERMANENT.

God it is laughable how your lack of experience is showing. How many countries have you emigrated to and lived in? If all immigration is permanent, then DEPORTATION would not exist.

Those people are only expats from the perspective of their home country. To the country they are working in, they are classed as immigrants
@PlanDeRaccordement

Your ignorance is astonishing. Do you know anything about the world beyond the West? Your statement is totally false. Expat workers are not regarded as immigrants in China or the Middle East. Provide evidence. How many of the Middle East's expat workers are given citizenship?

Not sure about the economic background / status one here, TBH:

To be perfectly frank, Switzerland, where I'm based (see username) has a higher standard of living and GDP per capita than the UK. Bluntly speaking, I'm making a bloody killing on a local executive contract here, compared to what I would be earning back in the UK. So, from a purely economical standpoint - and yes, ai realise how absurd this sounds coming from a white person with an upper MC British background - I should be considerer a migrant labourer around here.

Here's why I'm not: when I was recruited for my current role - and I shan't go into too much detail as to what it is precisely due to it being rather specialised and accordingly outing - I was selected after an interview out of an handful of candidates, none of whom were local, based on a combination of a very specialised skill set, combining industry experience and transferrable/generic skills, and generic "fit to company profile"/cultural fit.

Technically, the mere fact that I've been here for half a decade and have been paid what is, realistically speaking, a decent but hardly great salary given my position, has increased my market value - were I to move back to the UK now - by 25% compared to a position comparable to my current one but based in the UK. That's what any British firm would assume they'd have to offer for me to consider an offer.

Still, from a Swiss POV, I'm actually a ridiculously good deal considering my industry in general and my area of specialisation in particular. I'm a decent amount cheaper than what a local with a comparable skill set would be asking.

So, really, I suppose from a Swiss POV, there's a good case to be made that I'm really a salary-dumping immigrant.

Plan a lot of what is talked about here has no legal definition.

Expat is not a legal term, according to what you’ve laid out they are just as much immigrants as anyone else. But hardly anyone considers them immigrants just like no one considers foreign exchange students immigrants. Seasonal workers are another category that no one would say are immigrants. The popular understanding is not the same as the legal one in the UK.

Also, speaking from a China perspective, you don’t immigrate to China. You enter (literally enter, the words immigrate are not used) on a visa and are given residency on that basis. When your contract ends, you leave as you no longer have permission to stay (although it’s a gray area in terms of the expiry date on your residency, depends on how aggressively your former workplace would follow up on that).

There are many articles on the racialised nature of the word 'expat' vs 'immigrant'.

www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/mar/13/white-people-expats-immigrants-migration

There are many articles on the racialised nature of the word 'expat' vs 'immigrant'

As a PP noted, this is boring and rather parochial. Plenty of expats are not white; ime white collar workers tend to be expats, while labourers/blue collar tend to be migrant workers.

So an Indian national working in a hospital is an expat; one in the construction pit is a migrant worker.

So based on what you said, it's economic class based then? The person harping on about "everything is racial" and "boring", whom you agree with, just because I mentioned race once said it isn't about class.

I haven't seen the definition of expat as 'only white collar jobs' but from your explanation, that's what it is, is it?

I've known a few brits who've gone to work in African countries in blue collar roles (Engineering site work, etc), are they not expats (because they are and they'll tell you so too)? Or is the blue collar non-expat 'migrant worker' title for non brits alone?

It's an 'us' and 'them' label. I moved to another European country for work and called myself an immigrant, but all the other Brits used to laugh so much at me for doing so. It goes back to the empire and people thinking other countries should be thrilled to have Brits living amongst them 🙄

For several years we were expats in the Middle East. We were never going to stay for ever, we were not going to acquire citizenship, so we were never immigrants.

IMO people who intend to stay in a country for good and acquire citizenship are immigrants. People who just choose to work abroad for a while, or live abroad when retired, but don’t take up citizenship, are expats.

It means ex patriot of the country your from, nothing to do with class.

Well I suppose no longer feeling patriotic might be a reason for emigrating...

"Expat" doesn't linguistically have anything to do with class, but I'd say it certainly has connotations relating to occupation and income.

A person going to live in another country for retirement (with the intention of staying forever or for as long as nothing causes them to leave) seems odd to be considered an expat but yes that's what I usually see online. Since that's part of the definition, that's fine.

Yet I've never noticed other retirees or elderly people from other countries (who've immigrated to the UK to live ...some with the intention of staying forever or until something causes them to leave, some just for a while before going back) called expats, they're always "immigrants".

I see PPs point in saying expat is said among those of the same nationality but to the locals, you're an immigrant but I think that's a bit of a cop out. Surely this only applies to brit/western circles?

Does anybody else call themselves expats in the UK (who are not from the UK) among people of the same nationality within the UK or call people of their nationality anywhere else expats?

@Letsleepingfrogslie

Here is a suggestion for you since you are struggling. You are from Kenya. Get a job in Kuwait. You are from Caracas. Get a job in Baku. You are from Stavanger. Get a job in Sarawak. Now report back on whether you are considered an immigrant. Or an expat with a visa. Do you understand there's a world beyond the West? Populated with non Western expats?