Disabled friend not allowed on a teaching training

[MonaLisaDoesntSmile]

An old acquaintance has a very visible physical disability she was born with. She completed her degree and has been holding a part time desk job since graduation. The disability made lots of things limited to some extend, some other things difficult/impossible, but did not stop her from travelling/working/studying.

When we recently spoke she said that last year she had wanted to retrain to do PGCE. She applied and was unsuccessful at all universities (she applied for 3 which are fairly local and would not require a move). In each case, there was some sort of excuse why they thought she would not be a suitable candidate for the course; there was no mention of her disability, but she strongly felt that was the reason why she was not accepted as the feedback was something she could have worked on (get more up to date classroom experience etc) and other candidates she met on the day were accepted despite seemingly being in a similar position (f.ex. mature student with equally no class experience,...).

We found it very unfair if that is the case, but in the back of my mind, I actually started wondering. Teaching is an exhausting job physically, having done it for 10 years I know really well. I have seen many people struggle to keep up, many healthy individuals find it hard; I have seen schools phasing out older teachers and people with long-term illnesses, wanting to replace them with someone they saw as more 'efficient'. She would have found it hard to cope, not mentioning the fact kids can be very cruel. Friend's mum told her maybe it's for the best, as maybe universities protected her against disappointment of not being able to find a job or not being able to cope if she found one. On the other hand- should she have not got a chance at least to do the degree and then look for a job and possibly be successful at it if she worked hard? Is it not unfair to deprive her of a chance to try for herself?
It's not really an AIBU, but I was wondering what people felt.

The Education Act 2002 says that a teacher's (or prospective teacher) fitness to teach must be assessed. The Equalities Act 2010 says you can't discriminate based on disabilities. So there's a sort of wishy washy area in between regarding this. Most universities will do this check when you apply. If you're in loco parentis to children, you have to be able to e.g. evacuate the classroom if there's a fire, respond to something falling maybe. They should be telling your friend this clearly but are possibly fudging it by saying she needs more classroom experience, which is also a valid reason for rejection.

How much classroom experience does she have? Perhaps it is lacking and its their way of gently letting her know its not for her? ie if she gets more classroom experience and realises how tiring/demanding etc it is.

Has she got any experience of working in a classroom?

I trained with two disabled (wheelchair user, one of whom with cerebral palsy which also affected speech) trainee teachers. They passed the course. Unfortunately I don't know details of what reasonable adjustments were made for them, but thought you might like to hear a positive story.

There’s an access plan that allows disabled teachers to have a support person with them to help with the physical side of things if the teacher is physically unable.

It’s an incredibly expensive way round things as the school then has to pay two salaries for one post. But it exists.

I don’t know any more about it as I chose not to go down that path myself but if your friend is committed to persevering with the option of teaching then she might want to look into it.

It’s hard. I’m a wheelchair user and know I’m not going to apply for the army/be a flight attendant/surgeon etc. It sucks but just a requirement of the job like having certain educational requirements. But if an office based job turned me down then I would think it was discrimination if you only needed to do the job sitting, I can do that.
It’s hard as we’re being told to be hero’s and not accept no for an answer. But being realistic and self acceptance is a huge thing and makes us happier in the long run.

Could she work out what she wants to do about teaching? Is it working with a particular age group or the actual teaching? Could she look into university type teaching roles or perhaps a social work type roll? There someone who’s disables would be a positive role model but you wouldn’t need in the same way to run over to a child stabbing another one with a pair of scissors or eating glue?

@BobbinThreadbare123
They should be telling your friend this clearly but are possibly fudging it by saying she needs more classroom experience, which is also a valid reason for rejection.

True, but a lot of people without experience are accepted. I had zero experience of being in a classroom except for that of me being a student. I know a lot of people who never set a foot in the class outside maybe a week observation before doing their PGCE. It may be a valid reason, but it's one easily recified, so it seems a bit like a cop out answer.

I was just thinking more in terms of morality of it- should all candidates been given the same chance and if they dont secure a job or find it hard, so be it, or should they be told- sorry, you may/may not be unfit to do the job, but we're not going to give you a chance because it's ulikely you will find employment and the degree will just be a waste of time.

My DC when in Reception had a teacher with no legs. She used to sit on the floor amongst them when not in her wheelchair. I also know of teachers with other disabilities. The reality is she does not not know that she has not been offered a PGCE place because of her disability and it may well be that there were simply better candidates.

I would think primary would be a bit of a faff with a disability because of the sheer energy of 30 small kids in the room. However, has your friend thought about teaching in FE? The students are much older and hopefully more mature.

I was a teaching assistant at a school who had a blind teacher. I don't know the full extent of his disability, but it was a requirement there was a teaching assistant in every lesson and it was our job to be aware of pupils who were misbehaving and to alert him or tell him when he asked, choose pupils who had their hands up, write things on the board. I'm not sure if he marked books himself or how he prepared the lesson PowerPoints.

I'm hearing impaired myself (and now a teacher) so know how difficult it can be. But I remember when I did my training I wondered how he had shown evidence of meeting some of the teaching standards if he needed an additional adult to do some parts of the job for him.

You want to be inclusive, but surely there comes a point where it's not possible. One day my hearing loss may be so bad I will have to reconsider my teaching career, but I'll have to accept that.

I used to recruit for the Schools Direct programme (a PGCE managed by schools rather than a university). It was very competitive and for that reason we were able to be incredibly picky, those we took usually had a huge amount of hands on school experience which meant for a lot of those we rejected, the lack of experience was the reason we said no. We wouldn’t have turned away someone disabled due to their disability (and did take at least two disabled students while I was there) but if it was apparent that a candidate’s disability would make it impossible for them to do the job, we would have had to reject them. This never arose for us but I hope we would have kindly explained the exact reasons why, but of course we would have had to be careful to avoid contravening the disabilities act.

I was turned down for a pgce for lack of classroom experience. I then spent half a day a week volunteering and reapplied. That was enough back then, but most applicants now seem to have worked as TAs. I'm not saying it can't possibly be discrimination but if the other applicants really have very little experience they probably aren't getting accepted either.

If she wants to test your theory the only option is to get some classroom experience and reapply. Is she really committed to becoming a teacher? Because if she is not that may well come across in the interview.

@CherryStoneTree I think she wanted an actual classroom job. I know someone whith a different disability who has been teaching and needed adjustements along the lines of always teaching on the ground floor, she worked part-time as well, and did fine in her first job, but her second school had a policy it's teacher's moving classes not students, placed her in different classes on her timetable and she had to quit after a term as she was unable to move between classrooms, some of which were on different floors and demanded lots of walking up and down (there was alift, broken most of the time).
I think friend was hoping to find a smaller setting or possibly work 2/3 days a week, which would be doable for her. On another note, job opportunities are not abundant where she lives, not mentioning part-times ones that are hard to get, so we were wondering if this was the unis' way to just tell her- save yourself the trouble.

@RedRed9 That's the issue though- money. It would probably be too expensive if the school would bneed to pay for that, so many schools struggle already...

@beesbeesbee She completed a required week of observation I think. There were obviously people who taught abroad or were TAs before who applied for the course, but I know lots of people who never set foot in a classroom outside being a student who got admitted with no issues with similar lack of experience and who were allowed to do more obs later on after getting an offer, and none were stopped to be a successful practitioner after graduating.

I have a physical and visible disability affecting my arms. I retrained to be a teacher a few years ago and I completed the course successfully. The real trouble came when applying for jobs, I must have had 20/30 interviews. I was always "pipped to the post" or there was always someone with slightly more experience or some other excuse. I don't believe for one minute that my disability did not play a part in me not getting some of those positions.

Eventually I went on supply and secured a full time, permanent job through that where I have been for the last 5 years.

You are correct in that children can be unkind, I've had two incidents where my headteacher has had to speak to children who were either imitating me or saying unkind things. It was a difficult and upsetting situation. I do believe there will be more to get through throughout the years.

Disability shouldn't play a part in getting a teaching job if you can evidence you can do it sufficiently, but unfortunately it does. I am sure, even now with all my experience behind me, that I would still struggle to get a different position if I chose to look for a job elsewhere.

A different way to look at this- as I understand it, the good unis have a huge number of applications now, way more than they take, so without a 2:1 and some recent classroom experience, people may not get on the course. This wasn't the case 5-10 years ago.

I think this is a tricky issue, I think it depends on the nature of the disability, as a lecturer, I've noticed students who want to carry on in academia with energy/illnesses that make them fluctuate a lot can really struggle, just to keep up with the demands. A lot of professions are very bureaucratic now and want their pound of flesh in terms of paperwork and workload, and that's going to be hard for some. If it is more a question of accessibility/physical accommodation, that's easier, and it's also better for those already in the door rather than trying to get in from outside.

I think claiming she could do the work but having no classroom experience to prove that was always going to be a loophole. If she can do class work, why didn't she work part-time as a volunteer? That, plus enthusiastic references from those she worked with, might have clinched it.

if it is more a question of accessibility/physical accommodation, that's easier this may actually not be true, thinking about one of my brilliant students with mobility issues, she struggled a lot to get disability services/uni to take this seriously and provide necessary accommodation, they did in the end but it was a lot of fighting for something that should have just been automatically provided.

If she feels strongly that teaching is for her, then she should get some more experience in the classroom and try again. Maybe the extra experience will reassure the application panel that she knows what the job involves and could cope, maybe it will allow her to answer questions in more depth. Certainly I wouldnt let one set of knock backs stop me from doing something I really wanted to do.

It could well be true that with this round of applications on this particular course, that there were lost of people who had more classroom experience and so we’re better choices to put forward than your friend regardless of disability. It’s not right to just jump straight to an accusation of discrimination when your friend doesn’t have one of the most basic things that will be looked for in terms of experience.

While I agree with you that your friend should be given the opportunity to train, it would also be quite cruel to lead her to believe that she can get a teaching job, allow her to accrue debt for her training, all while knowing her chances of actually securing a job were very low.

A week of “required” classroom experience really isn’t enough these days. You reference knowing people getting on with that little, was this recently? For quite a while now there has been an expectation that student teachers have significant experience and almost every successful candidate we interviewed had either worked as a TA or volunteered once a week in a school while they were at uni. It’s harder to get voluntary experience once you’re working yourself but if you don’t have it you will be at a huge disadvantage (unless you want to train to teach physics ...)

Your title is very misleading op.
You have no idea why she wasn't accepted.
'Accepted' being the correct term, rather than 'allowed'.

I completed my teacher training with a girl who had a form of dwarfism (I believe alongside/ causing other medical and physical difficulties) and was a full time wheelchair user. She did very well in her teaching placements and secured a job in primary at the end of the 3 year course. I think she may have had a PA assisting her in the classroom although it was over 10 years ago now so I may be remembering that wrong. I have also worked in a school with a teacher who only had one arm and indeed at my secondary school one of the teachers was a wheelchair user, so physical disability is definitely not an instant no to teaching.

Most PGCEs do require that candidates have some classroom experience (on my course 2 weeks work experience in a primary classroom was a pre-requisite) or, at the very least, experience working/ volunteering with groups of school-aged children such as Brownies/ after-school and holiday clubs/ sports coaching etc.

If the feedback your friend got from all 3 colleges was that she doesn’t have enough classroom experience then she needs to listen to that and act on it. It may be that you were able to get into a PGCE years ago without having been in a classroom and that anecdotally other people you know did too, but that obviously doesn’t reflect what these colleges are looking for now. They will only choose the candidates they feel are most likely to stick at the course and succeed so if they have 100 places and of the 500 applicants only half have classroom experience whilst half don’t then it’s an easy and fair way to start whittling down the number of people to consider accepting. Teaching is very different to how many people imagine it and a PGCE is a very intense and demanding course with a drop out rate of around 15% so it completely makes sense to want people to have at least seen what the job is likely to be like before they embark on a PGCE.

My course had two thirds drop out (two years ago, highly rated provider).

I am finding it unlikely to she's been rejected because she has a disability. Students with disabilities enter into teacher training all the time, and many of them go in to teach. I can see no logical reason why any institution of this type would discriminate - yes, some employers might although they shouldn't, but for the universities, frankly, it is no skin off their noses whether or not she ends up teaching - many PGCE students don't!

I'd have to say that the likely reasons for rejection are the ones given, and if she really wants to teach she needs to act on those things.

I remember a thread very like this, at least 5-6 years ago.

The advice was the same then.