Disabled friend not allowed on a teaching training

[MonaLisaDoesntSmile]

An old acquaintance has a very visible physical disability she was born with. She completed her degree and has been holding a part time desk job since graduation. The disability made lots of things limited to some extend, some other things difficult/impossible, but did not stop her from travelling/working/studying.

When we recently spoke she said that last year she had wanted to retrain to do PGCE. She applied and was unsuccessful at all universities (she applied for 3 which are fairly local and would not require a move). In each case, there was some sort of excuse why they thought she would not be a suitable candidate for the course; there was no mention of her disability, but she strongly felt that was the reason why she was not accepted as the feedback was something she could have worked on (get more up to date classroom experience etc) and other candidates she met on the day were accepted despite seemingly being in a similar position (f.ex. mature student with equally no class experience,...).

We found it very unfair if that is the case, but in the back of my mind, I actually started wondering. Teaching is an exhausting job physically, having done it for 10 years I know really well. I have seen many people struggle to keep up, many healthy individuals find it hard; I have seen schools phasing out older teachers and people with long-term illnesses, wanting to replace them with someone they saw as more 'efficient'. She would have found it hard to cope, not mentioning the fact kids can be very cruel. Friend's mum told her maybe it's for the best, as maybe universities protected her against disappointment of not being able to find a job or not being able to cope if she found one. On the other hand- should she have not got a chance at least to do the degree and then look for a job and possibly be successful at it if she worked hard? Is it not unfair to deprive her of a chance to try for herself?
It's not really an AIBU, but I was wondering what people felt.

@MintyMabel

Tempting. I wonder what to do with all the leftover free money after bills. A few hundred a month (with significantly reduced earning capacity) should be enough shouldn't it!?

Able bodied folk don't know how good we have it. Let's keep it a secret between us

I think friend was hoping to find a smaller setting or possibly work 2/3 days a week, which would be doable for her.

It'd be worth her bearing in mind that a lot of smaller settings are tiny village schools which may be even harder for her to work in - my DCs were at a small village school with no staff car park (they park on the road) and in a Victorian building.

@WhatwouldLangdo you've taken umbridge there when there was no need. You don't know anything about me and whether or not I have a disability.... I don't teach any longer thank goodness, but primary would have been my nightmare. I suggest reading suggestionplease1's excellent post to up your insight.

My dsis was a wheelchair user. She was also a physiotherapist. The knock backs she got before getting a job were myriad. And even when she got the job the doctor doing her occupational health check explicitly told her that in his view she shouldn’t be allowed to work,

She eventually got her dream job in a special school. The children didn’t seem to notice her disability. Several parents told her that she gave them hope for their children in the future.

If your friend is really committed to teaching, she should continue to try... getting as much experience as possible on the way.

It's really interesting to see that a lot tof people have very different experience- out of 25 people on my course when I was doing mine 10 or so years ago, only a handful had a very extensive teaching experience (TA's or teaching abroad). Most of us were new to the profession and had very little to none teaching experience at all.

@SuckingDieselFella She was given feedback at the end of the day and over the phone. She also knew that two of the unis had free spaces and were recruiting until much later as the courses did not fill and they still had many spaces when she applied. Having been there, up until the feedback she felt very confident as her qualifications were very strong and she did not see most people having a lot of experience in the classroom themselves (A few had not even completed the observations the uni asked), she felt she performed strong in the tasks- whic the feedback also reflected.

There are so many reasons that you can be turned down as it is so competitive. I have a disability and it can be very apparent but where I live they now ask for a full medical before they accept you as a teacher? This has really put me off applying again in case I get a poor result on my medical. I had over a year of experience as a TA and was still turned away for lack of classroom experience. I never thought it was anything to do with my disability but then I suppose it depends on how visible your disability may be and the interviewing board.

The children I have worked with have always been very kind and often more accepting than adults.

Children usually are nicer than adults! They get used to things quickly and I often found them to be sympathetic and helpful. Shame about some of my colleagues! FWIW OP, I hope your friend finds something that she enjoys in education. Maybe that means widening the net about what that might be.

@beesbeesbee Neither of these would be a problem- friend is ok to travel on public transport if there is one and the disability does not impact her mobility, so she can go up and down the stairs; there are other issues that it is impacting, but again she could go around them in an appropriate setting. Whether jobs in such settings are abundant is a different matter.

@WhatwouldLangdo

Shit! I've given the game away

It'd be worth her bearing in mind that a lot of smaller settings are tiny village schools which may be even harder for her to work in - my DCs were at a small village school with no staff car park (they park on the road) and in a Victorian building.

Just as well no disabled children go to school, otherwise the Local Authorities would have to adapt those schools to make them accessible. Unless the equalities act was all just a big hoax and LAs aren't duty bound to make their school estates accessible.

@BobbinThreadbare123
I once got a job in a school, where I was later told that two other teachers whom I saw on the day were not accepted despite qualifications because one was homosexual and one had a very strong foreign accent (that was off the record conversation between me and my HOD by the way, not the official feedback given to them). My HOD said they could not have employed the other teachers as the kids would eat them alive and that they did not want to deal with potential problems, so they made life easier for everyone by giving them some feedback on lesson. And I can testify, the kids were a bunch of mean buggers, there was a lot of racism and misogyny among students and many parents. I lasted 2 years because there were no other jobs in the area and I could not move at the time. So my experiences with kind children are a bit skewed because of that :)

Was it this year she applied for this sept? A lot of places with spaces on primary courses are accepting applicants with no school experience because obviously schools closing have impacted on that; but it's not the norm. 2 weeks is usually the bare minimum, does she have any? I am not saying that discrimination doesn't exist, of course not, and sadly that could be the reason. But they are competitive to get onto for primary.

It's obviously hard to say, without knowing the situation. However, given the "fit to teach" form is a requirement of all ITT courses, if her disability was a problem, this would probably be the way unis would end up rejecting her.

The are disabilities which can be barriers to teaching e.g. I believe people with uncontrolled epilepsy can't usually become teachers. Some severe mental health issues, such as schizophrenia, are also often barriers. There is a trade off between reasonable adjustments and being able to keep the students safe.

I wonder if the current situation with coronavirus has affected the thinking of universities?

Firstly, because they know they may struggle to find placement schools in September, so they are perhaps being more selective than usual?

And secondly, they may worry that if they send her into school and she became very ill, they might have breached their duty of care?

If she believes she has been unfairly treated, she should follow the uni's complaints procedure. She can also apply to other ITT providers one at a time via Apply 2 if she wants to?

Whether jobs in such settings are abundant is a different matter.

The issue here is whether or not she will get that much choice. Around here places are allocated during probation, you don't get to choose.

They are highly competitive. You need LOTs of experience before being considered.

And secondly, they may worry that if they send her into school and she became very ill, they might have breached their duty of care?

That's the case for any person disability or not.

@MonaLisaDoesntSmile yeah I've met those kids too, unfortunately. It's amazing how different the atmosphere can be in different schools, isn't it? Even when they can seem so similar in terms of area and demographic.

@negomi90 Going by what friend said, she felt she was a strong candidate and interviewed strong and not many had extensive experience of working with young people. In a shorage subject, at unis which ended up with free places until August. She felt the lack of experience was a cop out answer, as they would not tell her it's the disability- as one user said it the answer would have to be carefully worded to avoid breaking the law, so it was easier to say to get more experience. Obviously we will never know. It was her impression.

As a teacher I received a totally bs feedback in some interviews, where it was clear the school either had a candidate picked before the interview (internal for example) but had to do the interview process regardless, or that I was too expensive to be employed and they were really lookign for an NQT to fill the gap. Hard to explain in word, but being there it's how it felt. So I get that sometimes you have a 'feeling' that the feedback may be just for the sake of it.

She has worked to get more experience to reapply, but felt so down after last year and was not sure if she wants to see the same recruiters and go through the same thing again.

I forgot that disability means you can't deal with anything remotely challenging!
I doubt that any reasonable or fair-minded person would think that.

The concerns expressed by the teachers on this thread have been mostly around the willingness of schools to recruit and retain a teacher within a highly inspected and punitive accountability system.

I was watching a video recently of a teacher in America or Canada who was born with disabilities. During her story, she said that she was knocked back at many interviews. However, on securing a teaching position, she was very successful. Her enthusiasm was infections. She had a great attitude.

My friend had experience of certain types of teaching & was not accepted the first time she applied for PGCE

I recruit for a School Direct ITT programme and this year we have accepted several trainees for this September who have little or no recent primary school experience, which we would not have done I previous years. We are instructed to look for 'potential' to teach, not experience, although in previous years we would not have made an offer to these trainees, and would have given exactly the same feedback as was given to your friend. In all those cases this year the candidate had time in school booked in for the summer term - now not possible - and either had linked experience eg. working in youth theatre, or had researched thoroughly and could articulate how their experience in retail, hospitality or whatever had prepared them. Teaching is very demanding, and we do not make offers to anyone with a too rosy or unrealistic view of classroom life, but we will work to support anyone we judge has the potential to make a good teacher. Having said all that, we do think there may be a higher than usual drop out rate in September (or whenever they do get into a school...) - we have lost one a year
for the last 3 years despite our (and often their) best efforts. Teaching is not for everyone and it does help to go I with your eyes wide open, seeing the difficulties but loving it enough, and having/ learning the skills to overcome those.

To be fair, I don't think the fact that unis interview until August is definitely a point in favour of discrimination.

A lot of unis don't like to fill their spaces in early in the application cycle, because they know they will get more candidates apply later on, and some of those might be very good, so they want to leave spaces available.

Even for shortage subjects, admissions to some unis can still be competitive- I know my uni rejected a lot of people for Science PGCE places because they felt they would just end up dropping out anyway.

During teacher training you have to be prepared to take advice on the chin and work on it. If she is really keen to be a teacher, then why not try getting more experience in schools and reapplying next year?

If she truly believes discrimination has taken place, she can raise a complaint with the unis in question.

For the video
Tiny Teacher under title Born Different

Both primary and secondary schools have challenges for disabled teachers.

From a secondary perspective it may depend upon the subject and whether she is looking at full time and part time. Schools tend not to be keen on staff being off because of cover implications. They should be able to put her in a classroom that meets her needs.

However secondaries tend to have multiple buildIngs and lesson changeovers tend to be swift and manic.

If she is applying to popular pgce courses it could be she is not as good as the others. There will be a lot of competition for those courses over the next couple of years given the current climate. Has she thought of apply to schools directly for training instead of a pgce?

It is possible but can she look at volunteering first

I am full time electric wheelchair user and started of volunteering in my son's school.based on that I was offered full time job and training in the class room

I turned down as aware for me full time be to much but still volunteer weekly and school have paid for me to do training courses , learning to use eye gaze and communication devices etc and would support if wanted to train as teacher .

Been offered collage place based on experience alone .

Slightly different as is a school for physical disablites so is a Postive in way as the children can relate to me.

I also spend time in MS school next door and yes they did make few comments at first but I am thick skinned and have own teen's and they soon learnt not acceptable and big thing was when turned round and said I forgot you was in a wheelchair as became normal to them

Now heading to my 5th year

I find it very difficult to believe people are getting places on teaching post grad courses with zero classroom experience. I'm a primary education undergrad and everyone on our course has been in schools volunteering, helped out at cubs/brownies, taught swimming lessons, worked at summer camps. It's extremely competitive.