That it’s women who are still locked down?

[Sadie789]

My DH goes back to work next week and rightly so, long overdue in my opinion.

However, I can’t go back to work as with two young DC we have no childcare and it’s not possible to do my job from home.

Under normal circumstances without childcare it wouldn’t really be an issue as there would be classes and clubs and play parks and soft plays and friends to meet up with, so a full weekly schedule out and about with things to do.

I can’t take them to the supermarket or round the shops either, no grandparents allowed etc.

As it stands none of these things are available nor are likely to be for a while, so for me my situation has not changed from the initial lockdown - stay at home, go out for exercise (weather permitting).

Meanwhile my DH and the Hs of my friends are all back at work out of the house living normal days. At the weekends the golf is back on so that’s a leisure option.

Many of my friends are also trying to work from home while looking after children, some also homeschooling older ones.

Women who don’t have children are also on the back foot as many of the professions which are traditionally female - hair and beauty, retail, hospitality - remain closed and will be for some time.

Meanwhile men are back in the workplace. When furlough ends it will be those who are able to present for work and give all their attention to their job who are preferred by employers. Recruitment will be skewed by this too. It’s the traditionally male industries that are able to return earlier- outdoor and manual work.

When it does return childcare is likely to be limited in hours and more expensive- Scotland has quietly dropped the 30 free hours from
August that were going to make it financially viable for me to work. Now it’s going to be a matter of me earning a couple of hundred pounds extra per month instead of nearly £1000 that was previously the case.

I am far from a feminist, but it feels like any equality women had gained is being seriously eroded by lockdown and the exit strategy that has deftly avoided any conversation around how women, especially with younger children, are getting the raw deal.

Maybe the issue here is that a lot of women with jobs are bringing home the bread because the husband is unemployed/useless and they just want to spin it in a different way. What a nasty attitude. My DD earns more than her husband, they are both graduates, both work hard, she just happens to have had some opportunities for promotion that haven't come up for him. At one time he earned more than her, maybe he will in the future. Of her two best friends one has a very high flying career and is the main breadwinner with her husband working part-time and doing child care. Why would that make him useless, would you call her other friend who earns less than her husband useless?

I have two sons who are married/in long term relationships. In one my son earns more in the other my DIL earns more. One chose a higher paying career, so what?

My husband and I both grew up in houses with our mothers being the breadwinners, yes our father were useless, dead people often are.

Hope you enjoy your pity party.

@1forsorrow I’m talking to the posters who keep telling me I made the wrong life choice choosing a partner based on love, friendship and comparability rather than picking the one who wanted to be a house husband. And you know that.

Incidentally great for your DD and boyfriend who as you imply are recent entries to the world of work. Everyone starts out fairly equal. Come back in 20 years and we’ll see if your daughter is still the higher earner. When I started my first job in 1998 I earned more than my boyfriend too.

Am genuinely shocked that some posters don’t know any couples where the woman out-earns the man. I can think of many in my social circle, including DH and me. All in City type traditional “men’s” roles. And even better, not one of us is a “bitch in the boardroom”

Sadie789

MRAs are Mens Right Activists. Often web based. They keep an eye out for these sorts of threads then pop by to tell women how their life experience is wrong. Sometimes claiming to be women, themselves to add weight to their argument.

This is a good thread. Thanks for starting the discussion.

@1forsorrow

My husband and I both grew up in houses with our mothers being the breadwinners, yes our father were useless, dead people often are.

This scenario is not comparable in any way. You can’t say they were the breadwinners if they were the only parent.

But on that note, widows and single parents are also forgotten in the lockdown exit strategy which heavily favours two parent families.

@Artesia by city if you mean London, I think you’ll find diversity in the workplace non existent and gender attitudes prehistoric in comparison up here in Scotland.

Thanks @PicsInRed that’s interesting. I had no idea there was such a thing!

Again my fault obvs for living in my feminist-denier bubble of blame!

being with someone because of love and trust is much more important than who are the "bread-winner".
thank you for shading light on this issue, there is definitely a long to think about.

and, of course, we shouldn't forget about all the biased stereotypes and gender roles that are hard to get rid off.

Personally, I'm so tired of women being treated like "emotional support service".

@Sadie789

Have you spoken to you husband about how you would like things to change, going forward, so that you are no longer one of the families who fit the societal norms? How did he respond?

Yes @eckhart I said to him the other day, hey darling you know how you earn X times more than I do in your niche and highly skilled role. And you know how I earn considerably less in my job that I can’t go back to just now even though most of my colleagues are already showing face. Why don’t you run this by your boss, go part time in a time of extreme pressure for your company while your colleagues continue to work full time. Don’t worry about that young whippersnapper willing to do your job full time for less! What does he know, the childless fool! Don’t these people understand it’s 2020 and high time men focused 50% of their waking hours on child rearing? Fuck the mortgage by the way, I never liked this house anyway.

And he said, put down the gin Sadie, it’s time for bed little woman. But can you just switch the dishwasher on first.

@Sadie789 I think you're my new hero! No one ever wanted to earn less and be the general dogs body but it just turns out that way.

I don’t think I know any women who earn more than their husbands full stop.

I do - I earn double what my DH does.

would love to know how you choose to have a better paid job than your spouse. Please let me in on the secret

I made a conscious choice ~3 years ago. Prior to that, DH and I earnt about the same. I'd run out of road in my workplace - nowhere else to get promoted to, and not many other employers - and I was getting very bored. We also had a huge mortgage at the time and childcare bills on top.

I looked around for side-ways moves and there was an option I hadn't considered previously that traditionally pays very well. It took me 2 years, and an interim job at the same pay I had previously (to get experience), but I managed to make the transition and my pay literally doubled.

Some people fall into well paid sectors of work, but I think many people (and possibly more men than women?) make a conscious choice to prioritise high pay in their careers. You just don't get many people admitting it.

it’s not possible to do my job from home.

Question - is it possible for your DH to do his job from home? He has childcare responsibilities too, even if he earns more than you.

That's something else about my career - I've always insisted that my job was just as important as my DH's, and he completely agreed. We both went PT when we had kids (in fact, he was a SAHD for a while). If there had been parental leave around, we would have definitely used it. He takes his share of A/L / WFH days when the kids are ill and he does half the school runs.

In this instance, you're both attempting to work FT. You have to find the best solution for both of you. That doesn't mean throwing your job under the bus so he can waltz off and do his 100%.

Again my fault obvs for living in my feminist-denier bubble of blame!

Well, you've eaten from the tree of knowledge, so there's no going back now! 😉🤣

Don’t these people understand it’s 2020 and high time men focused 50% of their waking hours on child rearing? Fuck the mortgage by the way, I never liked this house anyway.

And he said, put down the gin Sadie, it’s time for bed little woman. But can you just switch the dishwasher on first.

Brilliant 🤣🤣🤣

Sorry Sadie im still not convinced. I too have been in FUll Lockdown for 11 weeks having vulnerable children with disabilities although my daughter would tell you its been 100,000 thousand years locked up. Its hard. I get it. But look at how many parents fear their children going back to school to soon. Its a no win situation for everyone. Its hard to motivate myself let alone the children but as i said turn it around. How many of us would be moaning if we had to go work, if we had to put our children back into normal life of school, childcare etc. A lot of women are having to do that already. My eldest daughter for one. She would love to stay at home instead has the same tearful separation of leaving her son at school while she has to do a thankless job. There is no exit plan for lockdown but i really dont think anyone has the same priorities which makes it hard on everyone who doesnt fit in with the latest agenda. I personally look at the gov in an advisory capacity but my choices still remain with me as i took my children out of school 2 wks before schools closed. I will return them when i feel the risks are not so high on everyone. If i wanted i could return to work and use the school provision but i choose not to as im scared and thats my choice. As for women earning more than their husbands, i know a few who husbands stay at home doing childcare/school runs. Their choice. I have been in that bracket myself while also raising children.

Come back in 20 years and we’ll see if your daughter is still the higher earner. Well we are already over halfway there, they graduated 11 years ago, they earned about equal for a few years, 5 years ago she got a promotion, then another, then another. He'll be doing well if he overtakes her and earns significantly more in the next nine years.

Can't you see how you are one of the people who perpetuates this, your attitude that a man who earns less than a woman or who is the SAHP is useless, have you thought how that would feel if you heard your husband and his friends talking about how useless you are because you earn less than him?

LannieDuck, great attitude. Yes it takes planning and decision making. My DD and SIL bought a house close to his work as he can work flexi, not possible for her, so he could do the dropping off for nursery/schools and finish early a couple of days to do pick up so limiting problems/costs. Some couples do work as a team.

I'd love to be more hopeful about this but I think this starts way earlier than we imagine. My job involves coming into contact with lots of student nurses. I notice there are a large number of young women who are afraid to speak, afraid to sing their own praises. Male nurses are still the minority yet in my place they are promoted quicker and go higher than female nurses. We have no female modern matrons at present. I hear them talk about female nurses who want to progress as 'having a lot on' and we all know what that means.

I’m in Oz, OP but your point is also relevant here.

www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-24/coronavirus-has-set-back-progress-for-women-workplace-equality/12268742

Coronavirus has left Australian women anxious, overworked, insecure — and worse off than men again

Extracts:

“Women — again, just like in the global conflicts of our shared generational memory — are doing the bulk of the clean-up at home. And while high hopes were entertained for the crisis to bring new hordes of home-based workers and thus a significant rearrangement of workloads within the home itself, early signs are that the gendered patterns remain all too familiar.“

“Of course, as the Workplace Gender Equality Agency points out in its recent paper Gendered Impacts of Covid-19 the demands on single parents — most of whom are women — are even greater. "With schools closed and other childcare arrangements, such as assistance from family and friends, discouraged due to social distancing measures, single mothers will have less ability to work and are at greater risk of poverty."“

“How to summarise this fusillade of data erupting from this extraordinary period in our nation's history, and the world's?
Perhaps like this: Women right now are more likely to lose work that is paid and also more likely to pick up work that is unpaid.”

So yes OP, men’s worlds are more likely to go back to a post lockdown life that for them doesn’t see much change from pre-covid.

Re Feminism - I would say I am one, but I don’t wear a badge, or make announcements generally, or plait my armpit hair etc., it’s not a religion or a cult, it’s just a way of looking at the world from a female perspective, and noticing the class differences between men and women.

I think a lot of this probably depends on the amounts people are actually earning.

There’s a national average above which there is realistically a ceiling above which the vast majority of people male and female will never really go.

So if you’re talking about choosing a job where your salary increases from £35k to £50k while your male partner continues to earn £40k, then I can accept that some women will have that kind of mobility in their careers and it would be a choice to be the higher earner.

But if one one you earns for argument’s sake £100k in a very niche role (I am NOT talking about my situation) while the other partner is on a pay scale that goes up in £1000 increments with a limit in the upper 30s... well how then can you CHOOSE to earn more than your partner? How does that become about life choices? You cannot choose to earn the big bucks because if you could we all would!

People who are paid well are generally paid such because their skills or knowledge or natural ability is unique or hard to find. There’s no choice about it and it’s ludicrous to suggest that women can choose to be better at something that will push their salary above their partner’s just because that’s what they’ve decided to do. There are multiple other factors at play in the recruitment or promotion of high earners and office politics and gender preference are a huge part of that especially in certain industries. Absolutely nonsensical to suggest otherwise.

You are being unreasonable. It's not just men that have returned to work. It's quite often the highest earner that goes back to work, which is often the female earner of the family. That is a very generalised and misandrist comment that you have made and doing women no favours coming out with a comment like that.

And I know the default answer here is leave the ceiling pay job and retrain.

This depends on two things.

Your natural talents and abilities. I’d love to be a pop star but I can’t fucking sing so I’m on to plums with that one.

And secondly your age and stage. With hindsight I should have been a vet. However to change my career now in my 40s I would have to resit my highers (or whatever they are called now) in order to get on to a university course which would then take four years, then on the job training at entry level salary for several years before money starts going up (I’m now in my 50s and don’t actually need childcare any more so what am I bloody doing?) and would be into my 60s by the time I’m possibly earning more than DH (who in the same 15 year period has probably had a couple more salary increases) by which point my kids are adults and me and DH would actually rather be on a beach sipping cocktails somewhere enjoying the spoils of his long and successful full time career which he was able to focus on because I had a less important job and ... my point is fucking lockdown is a pile of bollocks

When I started my first job in 1998 I earned more than my boyfriend too.

And what changed? Did you suddenly become a woman or did you and you partner decide to have children and you 'chose' to take on more that half the burden of child rearing? Or did you not discuss it and just become the default parent?

So why are you still talking about this happening to women rather than to parents who have chosen this division of labour ?

Nah I ain't complaining just pointing out( badly apparently) that women are in every role as is just- and that eventually we will be represented in equal percentages in all the power positions- that's is just too

You cannot choose to earn the big bucks because if you could we all would

You can choose to earn big bucks. The people who do haven't accidentally dropped into high paying roles. They've made an effort over time to get there. 'If you could, we all would' is nonsense. Many don't go for higher paid roles because they don't want the responsibility or don't have the self esteem to think they deserve it or because they're not interested or any number of reasons, other than that they just can't.

All of your posts indicate that you think the woman earns less than the man. Whilst this is true in lots of cases, it's not how things have to be, and if it matters so much to you, individually, I ask you again, what will you be doing to redress the balance in your family?

If women are feeling pissed off that they're not in higher paid roles, men won't, and shouldn't, fix that for them. Women need to go out and get higher paid roles, if that's what they want. Higher paid roles are available for women (we know this because many women are in higher paid roles) Training is available for women (we know this because many women are in training) Childcare is available for families (we know this because many families need and use childcare)

Which of these is not available to you? What example do you set to your daughter by staying at home with the kids when you don't want to? You are creating the societal norm.

Or is it that you want to stay at home with the kids, or that it's easier to stay at home with the kids? Is it that, in fact, you chose to stay at home with the kids, rather than make sure both you and your husband were high earners before having children in the first place?

I out earn my dh by double- well by 100% at the minute as he was made redundant. I'm still in my safe public sector role (pt)- I run my own practice in the other days. Yes I did chose to earn more by retraining 10 years ago. Prior to that my dh earned more than me.

I think it's sad that you don't know anyone where the female earns more than the make. In my peer group all the females earn more than their dh, except in 1 situation. They are lawyers, accountants, doctors- all jobs that are fairly traditional routes open to women and men 🤷‍♀️. And two men took 6 months paternity.