AIBU to be frustrated at flexibility being given to parents but denied to others?

[BojoKilledMyMojo]

I've been generally musing after conversations with a few friends over the past week on working arrangements.

It seems to be very common for parents to be given as much flexibility as they need to accommodate kids being home or to allow for drop offs / pick ups / appointments / sickness etc during non covid times.

All that is terrific, but why is the same flexibility not routinely granted to others? And why are non parents expected to pick up the shitty end of the stick all the time by being in early, staying late, working Xmas, getting last dibs on holidays etc?

In my time as a people manager I have had someone request flexible working so that they can volunteer for a cancer charity, another because they wanted to train guide dogs and another because they needed to care for their ill parent. Flexible working is for EVERYONE and there should be no stigma to requesting it and we should stop shaming those that do.

YANBU.

I requested flexible working in my last job (not a parent). I was told I wasn't allowed it. Everyone who had kids worked flexibly and I was always the one that had to pick up the slack.

I ended up leaving and now work for a great employer who affords everyone the same opportunities, regardless of whether they have children.

Typical Mumsnetters are deliberately misunderstanding the OP. At no point did she "have a pop at parents" or judge working mums. She actually has explained her frustration is at EMPLOYERS not offering the same flexibility for all. I agree with her. Yes anyone can apply for it but it's is often granted more to parents. I applied for it in my job and I don't have kids. Eventually I was given it but I had to justify the shit out of it because I'm not a parent. That's not fair. Maybe if you lot actually read the OP probably you'd stop getting so defensive and actually hold a proper discussion about the bias that workplaces often how towards parents.

Oh and don't be so naive with your "Oh it's not like that at MY place" you do realise that every company is different, right?

I think it's because enough parents DO take the mickey, giving all parents a bad name. It needs to be fairly done.

Not in the places l work. Most places of the places have had a robust grievance procedures e.g. if l was told l couldn’t take annual leave in school holidays then l would have gone down that route.

I have had to turn down requests for people refusing to work Saturdays, it’s not fair on everyone else as it would mean they would need to do more of them. Everyone also had to do their fair share at Christmas, people can’t just opt out.
Most of the places have also had flexible working policies and then can be applied for. It’s not just for those with children, it’s for people with elderly parents, ill partners etc

All treated the same at my place. When I was younger though and did all the usual restaurant / pub work alongside uni I’d always take the shitty Christmas shifts so my colleagues with children could spend time with them just because it’s a nice thing to do. I would only have been going home to my parents so I didn’t mind.

Ylvamoon I had to have a procedure in hospital and the accompanying letter said I might feel unwell and would probably benefit from a couple of days off (or words to that effect). My employer at the time (not the one I’m with now) did “ask questions”, I ended up going in and then being sent home as some of the other staff pointed out how unwell I was and looked.

I also think you're getting a hard time, OP.

It is absolutely right that parents and carers have that flexibility in the workplace and nobody is saying otherwise.
However, this flexibility should be extended to everyone, not just to parents / those with caring responsibilities.
If anything comes out of a post Covid-19 world, I would like to think it will be greater flexible working for everyone.

I understand your frustration OP. Many people have pointed out that flexible working should be available to all but that is not practical in reality. If an employer has core business hours then at least some staff have to work those hours which means there is only a certain proportion of the staff who can work flexibly. You then end up with situations where people feeI they have been treated unfairly because they can't have the same flexibility as someone else. I think people assume its the employer being flexible but in reality it's other staff who have to fill in the gaps.

I think flexible working is a great thing but over the years my goodwill has been slightly exhausted by people who behave in quite an entitled way. I see I'm not alone in having been told that I should work Christmas/nights/weekends/bank holidays because I don't have children and that I shouldn't book A/L during school holidays. It suggests some people think my life is less important because I don't have children and seem to forget I have a whole family I'd like to spend time with at special times of the year, they don't matter less just because I didn't give birth to them.
It's interesting that in the places I've worked it's rarely men asking for flexible working for childcare reasons. I've also worked with women who have gone above and beyond in their jobs when they've been given flexible working arrangements just to prove they're not taking the piss, this shouldn't be necessary or expected but we all know someone who treats flexible working as a cover to do far less than they are paid for.

What's frustrating about the school holidays is that's July and August is when lots of things are happening. So it's often not just the case of "well, you can go in June or smth".
Tour de France is traditionally July, many music festivals are July/August, it's when historical attractions run wonderful special events and more. Not forgetting stable weather.

Lots of employers are Fckers. Quite often, these are the ones who seem to favour parents - it's because they're more scared of being sued for discrimination if they don't "allow" it for parents*

I'm not sure why, since parenthood isn't a protected characteristic in and of itself

Well, this is going as expected.

Christ.

1. I've already stated at least twice that I don't have an employer. I work for myself, and afford myself as much flexibility as I desire. Its a general musing (first line in my post)

1. Why the assumption that those who don't have children have made that choice for themselves?

1. Which brings me to the fact that I joined mumsnet at the beginning of our IVF journey, many years ago. I also used the adoption board when we tried (unsuccessfully) to adopt. I then used the boards when I inherited responsibility for a child in another country after the death of a close family member. But then I never realised that I needed working ovaries to be a member of this site.

1. I haven't suggested even once that any flexibility should be taken from parents. I think it's fantastic to accommodate individual needs. I just think it should be offered to everybody and they can then decide how, if at all, to utilise it. And surely that would also level out the field a bit when it comes to promotions and the like?

1. The situation with holidays is awful for some. I go abroad for Christmas every year, and don't see anybody else's plans as being any more or less valid than mine.

1. Some of you have absolutely appalling attitudes!!

Oh, and I don't think legality tends to be a driving factor in parents staying home with sick children. Surely it's wanting to take care of them?

Likewise, my friend who's wife has MS. She frequently has falls when she tries to do things, and will stay there until he can lift her back into her chair. I'm pretty sure he should be protected under disability discrimination, but it doesn't appear to be in practice.

@BojoKilledMyMojo I completely agree and understand. I'm so sorry you have had to deal with such awful and insensitive comments on this thread. Sadly that is unsurprising for Mumsnet. They won't understand what you are trying to say because they are all too defensive in their little bubbles.

YANBU. Having kids should not entitle you to more flexibility than anyone else.

My point re legality wasn't that parents are more protected, but I'v always got the sense that some firms are more worried about parents because they think they're more likely to face a grievance and or be accused of sexual discrimination etc.

OP your friend and his wife is particularly galling because he's undoubtedly a carer.

I once took a saturday class in something I was interested in. I loved it, but eventually gave up because I found giving up my whole Saturday was just too much (by the time I'd commuted back into London and out etc etc). What was frustrating is that they offered a midweek class but because it started at 5:30 there was no way to make it in time and my employer would never have allowed me, for example, to start an hour early on that day so that i could leave an hour earlier.

OP your friend and his wife is particularly galling because he's undoubtedly a carer.

It's not galling because it sadly very common. That's the OP's point, frequently parents are afforded more flexibility by their employers than those who don't have kids. It's not fair and it needs to be more equal.

As a child my mum worked in a profession where she had to work Xmas Day, they all did so there was no arguments. When I got older and she retired I was unable to have Christmas off due to being told I had no children. My sibling also faced issues with working around that period for the same reason and so this year was the very first family Christmas Day we had all together - I was 38. I don't think we will get another one as my parents are elderly now. This is the impact of bagging Christmas Day every year.

Oh, and I don't think legality tends to be a driving factor in parents staying home with sick children. Surely it's wanting to take care of them?

Wilfully misunderstanding you and totally off topic, but I'd really rather NOT take unpaid leave (and annoy my employer/colleagues and ultimately damage my career) to mop the brow and wipe the running nose of my snotty, grumpy toddler when he's mildly ill, which is quite often (clearly I'd want to be with him if it was anything serious). It might make me un-maternal, but I would really rather his nursery kept hold of him and looked after him like I pay them to do. The whole "they're a little miserable, we think they'd be better off at home with mummy" thing really gets to me. That may be true, but we're better off as a family if we can pay our bills and if my career doesn't end up in a ditch as a result of pushing the 'flexibility' my employer offers a little too far. So no, this is one mummy who would prefer to be in the office getting paid.