AIBU to be frustrated at flexibility being given to parents but denied to others?

[BojoKilledMyMojo]

I've been generally musing after conversations with a few friends over the past week on working arrangements.

It seems to be very common for parents to be given as much flexibility as they need to accommodate kids being home or to allow for drop offs / pick ups / appointments / sickness etc during non covid times.

All that is terrific, but why is the same flexibility not routinely granted to others? And why are non parents expected to pick up the shitty end of the stick all the time by being in early, staying late, working Xmas, getting last dibs on holidays etc?

My post is merely asking why flexible working shouldn't be afforded to everybody for them to use as they need or choose
Flexible working is available to everyone in so far as anyone who has worked somewhere enough can request it. There is no guarantee it will be granted, nor have it granted in the way the employee wants.

For example, I've know several teachers drop to part time but they had days where they worked 11-2 so have to pay two sessions of childcare, or people have requested part time and been told they can't go part time because the school can't guarantee they'll be able to recruit another good part timer to job share.

Parents are legally responsible for their children and are entitled to leave for dependents. Parents aren't entitled to certain benefits if they don't work once the child hits a certain age, so unless you're proposing a situation where we go back to every family having a SAHP it just sounds like you're on the wind up based on your mates.

I’ve been lucky to work in places where there’s pretty much flexibility for everyone. The main challenges IME seem to be around half terms - at one point 90% of the department had primary school age children and reasons why their partners couldn’t take time off from their Very Important Jobs to share the childcare...

It's not your employers job to sort your childcare issues. If your hours mean you can't drop your child off at school, then use childcare!

Not so easy at the moment! DH and I are teachers, back in school full-time from 1st June. My primary-aged DC can go to their school as key worker children but wrap-around care is not running at the moment. There are no other providers as they all closed when the on-site club opened. I really don't know how I'm expected to be teaching a class and picking up my own children at the same time.

reasons why their partners couldn’t take time off from their Very Important Jobs to share the childcare.

Where all these partners men? Because it's amazing how often I see that..... "Oh, I have to do it all because DH just can't get away."

@ShouldWeChangeTheBulb

Flexi working is pretty standard for any public sector jobs - police (staff) council etc. Otherwise I agree it can be impossible to be taken seriously when you have other responsibilities or if you are a single parent with no one to fall back on

I line manage four staff:

Woman - two tween kids (partner working)
Woman - 2 and 4yo (partner furloughed)
Man - one 6yo (teacher)
Man - 3 and 5yo (partner working)

They've all got different circumstances, and three of them have been entirely upfront, realistic, flexible and hard working around what they need, and the understanding they need from me to support them.

The last guy has been noticeably shirking - that's not my judgement, it's the others. They know the childcare situation is tricky, they've all been there with kids, and they have challenges of their own.

It not surprising though that the piss takers are the same ones every time - and not surprising that he's the one angling to be furloughed when we can offer great flexibility and important, necessary work.

Hadenoughfornow The only two people on my team who had no sick leave or extra time off at all last year were parents. The three childless people have more time off than anyone else. By quite a significant margin, and neither have underlying health issues. One is infamous for phoning in with a stomach bug every single time he has forgotten to swap a specific shift he dislikes working. Obviously it's coincidence not causation that the childless people on our team happen to have a higher rate of sick leave. It doesn't mean all childless people do. However some people seem to think that if they, or their friend, or their friend's mum's friend, knows one cheeky/ lucky parent this is a representative of all parents and can be taken as typical...

YANBU. It pisses me off too. Having children seems to often be used as a bit of a licence. Not me (I work alone and for myself) but a friend has recently had colleagues not attend Zoom meetings they were supposed to and quite casually say they went out with the kids instead. He doesn't have kids and wouldn't dream of saying 'Oh, I didn't go to the meeting because I had to walk the dog for two hours' and neither would I in that position.

Another friend was told that she cannot take holidays in school holidays because she doesn't have children. Her husband is a teacher. My dad is a teacher and this used to happen to him and my mum too when I was a kid.

What's your solution? Only women without children can work full-time so as to make it 'fair'? That's socially backwards.
My solution would be for employers to be flexible for everyone.

We need to stop looking at flexible working in terms of parents vs childless. Flexible working should be available to all, for any legitimate reason - caring for an elderly relative, volunteering, childcare, looking after a sick animal...

Also I agree that currently, flexibility afforded for childcare comes at a high price to your career. I was allowed to leave at 4.30 every day so I could pick up my DCs from nursery by 6pm, but in three years I missed out on as many promotions - which all went to childless people.

You might say that’s fair enough and that’s the trade off when you have kids, but I don’t see why it needs to be that way.

It's not clear if you're talking about FLEXIBLE working i.e. still expected to do the same job in total, but with altered hours, or REDUCED working. Surely you don't have people who start later and finish earlier??? They must be doing the same amount of work in total, so presumably there is no "slack" to pick up? Or if they are doing reduced hours, they will be on reduced pay.

Since I had my DD, I have had to be much more strict about leaving on time. But I obviously still have the same amount of work to do on my working days, so I get in early, take a much shorter lunch break than many and take a lot of work home with me to do after DD is in bed. I have had more time off - children do have more illnesses and I rarely take time off for myself as I'm in pretty good health, but I did have to spend a week in hospital with DD. I don't see what the solution is to that though.

I think you need to speak to HR about equality, but at the same time some of these things companies are bound by law to provide.
I guess some companies just favour parents, it's wrong I agree.

@letitgolego - go to sink, wash up your pots from the day go home - dead simple, no need to be a martyr. Speak to your boss, facilities, whoev is appropriate, tell them not everyone is clearing up after themselves ask them to do an email.

Why are you on MN if you don't plan to ever have kids?
I work with a woman who requested (and was granted) a flexible working pattern to allow her to accommodate her doggy day care. Get a new job if you don't like it

I agree with you

I had one workplace who was decently flexible so when my best friend was hospitalised, I got some flex

In the real world, many single and childfree are looking after others including elderly parents and neighbours

My workplace is great. And flexibility goes two ways. One manager leaves at 3:50 every day to collect her children. But she logs back on from home between 6:00 and 7:00pm as standard (and often again later if there are deadlines to be met).

In normal times, I routinely leave at 4:00pm one day a week to go to an exercise class, but if there is urgent work I am happy to stay late if I have no other commitments.

I think everyone should be expected to make the time up where they can - nobody should get special treatment. The examples given above by the OP make me very happy that I work where I do!

I have worked in places that were quite unfair. In a small office of 7 where no more than 2 were allowed to be off at the same time, I had booked leave 6 months in advance for my Dad's milestone birthday and my manager cancelled it because a colleague with kids had asked fairly last minute and as it was half term they prioritised them. I was also never allowed anything other than the bank holidays around christmas time because they seemed those with families more worthy (like I don't have a fricking family?).

I also worked in one company where all requests for home working e.g. 1 day a week were denied, but people with kids were given whatever they liked, in some cases only coming in once a fortnight.

I sort of agree with you that some parents push it and that flexibility should be available to all who need it.

BUT (and this is a big one) you do realise that parents can be arrested for neglect/social services called if they leave their children unattended? So they will often have no choice but to leave work/stay home if their childcare falls through unexpectedly or their children are ill? Because, however annoying it might be for their employers/co-workers, it's not legal to leave young children on their own?

Before I had children, I might occasionally cancel a dinner with friends or night out on short notice to work late or come in early if that was needed...Now I have a child, that is not an option as his daycare opens at 8am and closes at 6pm. So those are the hours I can work. Also, if he looks the least poorly/has a temperature, I'll be called to take him home. Again, non-negotiable. I don't have a choice as to whether to walk out of the office if my childcare fails - it is my legal responsibility.

I'm hoping that lockdown will make companies more aware of how people can work flexibly and from home. I agree that flexibility should be for all (I have 3 DC, but completely see how people have many different reasons for needing flexibility). I suggest you follow Anna Whitehouse (Mother Pukka). Her Flex campaign is picking up good speed and finally companies are coming onboard.

I think it's really unfair for people with kids to get priority for Christmas compared to single people who don't live with family.

If someone in their early 20s who lives in a flatshare in London and doesn't have a car is forced to work on 27th December, they basically can't go to their family for Christmas because they have no way of getting back to London on public transport.

thecatsthecats you sound quite hard about the man whose partner is working with a 3 and 5 year old. I’d have thought his difficulties would be much greater than the others and furlough probably would be a sensible option.

BUT (and this is a big one) you do realise that parents can be arrested for neglect/social services called if they leave their children unattended? So they will often have no choice but to leave work/stay home if their childcare falls through unexpectedly or their children are ill? Because, however annoying it might be for their employers/co-workers, it's not legal to leave young children on their own?

Absolutely.

But it's also massively unfair for employers to expect those without children to drop their plans and stay late to cover scenarios like that.

I have experienced this from both sides, and I admit I'm not always that sympathetic to parents who cannot do the job they were hired to do using the kids as an excuse. I made large sacrifices to my career and earning prospects to ensure I was their for my kids and worked part time right through schooling so I didn't have to compromise their needs. If you can't work full time hours because of nursery pickups and need extra days off compared to your childless colleagues I have no issues with flexi time but they should not be paid for the hours they didn't manage. If the nature of your job is evenings/weekends/travel then it's time for a career change if you can't do your share etc. They say women bosses can be less sympathetic, I can see that in myself but it's actually because I think kids should be prioritised over career, I certainly did, not returning to full time until youngest was 16.

Why are you on MN if you don't plan to ever have kids?

Bingo.

Why are you on MN if you don't plan to ever have kids?
I work with a woman who requested (and was granted) a flexible working pattern to allow her to accommodate her doggy day care. Get a new job if you don't like it

That's not quite fair, @houseplantlover, MNHQ has made it clear that anyone is welcome on this website, not just parents. Not just mums (despite the name). However, as I pointed out upthread, although anyone is welcome on here (and I know several people who are regulars and are not parents), it seems bizarre to me to choose a place which is predominantly about parenting to have a pop at parents. And I would have thought that a non-parent-led website would be a more sensible place to have this discussion, but hey.

I used to feel the same as you. Then I had kids.