AIBU to be frustrated at flexibility being given to parents but denied to others?

[BojoKilledMyMojo]

I've been generally musing after conversations with a few friends over the past week on working arrangements.

It seems to be very common for parents to be given as much flexibility as they need to accommodate kids being home or to allow for drop offs / pick ups / appointments / sickness etc during non covid times.

All that is terrific, but why is the same flexibility not routinely granted to others? And why are non parents expected to pick up the shitty end of the stick all the time by being in early, staying late, working Xmas, getting last dibs on holidays etc?

being in early, staying late, working Xmas, getting last dibs on holidays etc?

I’ve had to do all of these as a non parent and since having kids 🤷‍♀️

It also isn't directed at people who need, use or are given flexibility. I thought that much was clear. It is directed at the people denying said flexibility to anybody else.

I hear about this so much but it's always a friend of a friend or similar. It's certainly not been the case anywhere I have worked. Where I am now, we try to be flexible for everyone with caring commitments. We recognise that parents have commitments that non parents do not, but also that many non parents have commitments themselves. This post smacks of the "paid maternity leave what a joke no one will pay me to take 9 months off for a jolly" thinking that got old a long time ago.

I get bored of the "having children is a lifestyle choice" arguments too. For most people who do not have children, that is also a lifestyle choice. There are going to be costs and benefits to both. If you want parental leave and so on that much, become a bloody parent, otherwise what are you actually moaning about?

Everyone needs to do their fair share, but in terms of flexibility why do you want/need the flexibility, what do you want to be able to do - go home at 3pm to watch Tipping Point, have a random afternoon off I go shopping, I mean seriously do think parents are leaving for a jolly?!? They're basically going to do another job!

If you had something you genuinely needed flexibility for - I.e. If you're a carer or needed regular hospital apps I'm sure your employer would be open to that. Or if you wanted to drop down your hrs - you do realise when parents reduce their hours to accommodate pick ups and drop offs they don't get paid for the hrs they're not working?? Or do think they do?

But FFS I think what I think your saying is if a colleague’s had to go home to look after a sick child you should be allowed a free afternoon off too. Maybe go to the gym, spot of shopping??

Seriously get a fucking grip - it isn't a holiday no on wants to be at him with a poorly child cleaning up shit and vomit and I'm sure most can't arsed with the school run - I know I can't. I'd rather be at work.

At my workplace no allowances are given to well performing parents - they are expected to get on with it. So if they need to pick up kids they need to make up that time from home later that night. But they tend to take up more flexible working options and so this works.

The well performing staff without kids are often given far more ‘informal’ allowances - eg allowed a free day off after work drinks, or a duvet day where they work from their phone, but they generally need to be in the office a certain amount per week to learn and develop networks.

If you ask either set they will tell you the other side has it better.

(The staff who don’t perform well generally lose their flexible working options which is counterproductive in a way as they tend to be on their way out and so fill the office with negativity).

The Christmas thing is ridiculous. I had no o have once very firm words with a colleague about Christmas off after she saw I put the request for off in in July. "But you don't have a family". Yeah. My parents and siblings are not a family... She put complaint about it to the management. Bitch. 🙄

I absolutely see where OP is going with the caring responsibilities. I think many people forget that not having children doesn't mean you don't have responsibilities and that you don't have time constraints on holidays etc. Or even the basic thing of wanting to spend time with a family too instead of permanent overtime...

I work in a large secondary school with lots of part time teachers. Most of the part timers are women because those are the people who have asked for part time hours. We do have 3 men who are part time. I'm not sure what their reasons were for wanting to be part time, but they made the request and were granted it, just the same as the women.

It isn't about me as I work for myself. I'm also infertile so won't just go and have some kids for parental leave, but thanks to the poster who so eloquently suggested it.

My post is merely asking why flexible working shouldn't be afforded to everybody for them to use as they need or choose.

And you thought posting this on a parenting website was a good idea because....????

The arrangements people make with their employers are none of your business, nor is it the business of your friends. But if anyone doesn't like their job, they can leave and go and work elsewhere.
HTH

I think your friends just have really shitty employers and they should take these issues up with HR. I've never come across non-parents being treated as you describe in any job I've ever had..

@MsAwesomeDragon you seem to be assuming that only the women have childcare responsibilities and not the men. In your example, all of those on part time hours may very well be those with childcare responsibilities.

OP I do agree with you.

Yes parents need flexible working in some cases but it is their choice to have a child and they shouldn't disadvantage others with this choice.

All you have to do is a quick search on MN and there are countless threads with parents moaning about not having Christmas off when there childless coworkers do because they think Christmas is 'for the children' and should be 'magical'. Childless people still have family, or friends, or loved ones who they want to spend Christmas with. I'm 21 and although I don't believe in Santa I still find all the aspects of it magical and want to enjoy the day of it with my parents and extended family. I distinctly remember one thread where a woman complained about discrimination after not getting a job because she said she could never work weekends due to childcare when the job required 1 weekend in 4. She complained that because she was a parents and capable of all other aspects of the job she was being discriminated against for being a parent. No, you didn't get the job because you couldn't meet the demands of it.

There is also plenty of threads of parents talking about asking to WFH so that they can look after their children. This will invariably make them less productive as (as also quoted on here all the time when talking about SAHP) childcare is a full time job. Yes there will be times they can sit down at their computer and answer emails but they will have to take frequent breaks to tend to their children which breaks concentration and invariably makes them less productive thus putting more onus onto their colleagues (obviously this is different right now during Covid but I'm talking about during 'normal' times).

There's also plenty of threads where parents talk about having to leave 'on the dot' of 5pm of whenever their work days ends according to their contract. And in this case if something isn't finished it is the expectation that whoever is left in the office and doesn't have to leave 'on the dot' (I.e the childless) that they finish whatever is left to do. I've had this in jobs where parents leave having finished all their work but left a plate, mug and cutlery in the sink from their lunch and expect my to 'just finish the clean up before I leave' because they have to go 'on the dot'. I don't care that it's not proper work, they're still expecting me to finish off their 'bits' that are part of working in an office and essentially treating me like a skivvy.

Parents absolutely should be offered flexibility so that they can still work in roles that they are suitable. But the same flexibility should be offered to everyone. They also should work flexibly, not less, so that others don't have to pick up their slack. And they shouldn't expect any priority to time off during holidays/weekends/events. Everyone has the same right to these holidays and they should be shared out equally.

My experience (NHS) was that there was a clear difference ( and the HR policies reflected this) between those caring for children and those dealing with elderly parents.

I used to say this about smokers though. At one place I worked smokers were allowed fag breaks when ever it was quiet so some people pissed off out side every couple of hours. I don’t smoke so where’s my breaks?

Sorry sillysmiles it does sound that way doesn't it? But I do actually know that the men in my school who are part time do not have children living at home. One is a young single man, no children. The others have adult children.

All of the male parents of small ish at my school work full time. The majority of female parents of small ish children at my school work part time. This was not a school expectation, but I do believe it is a societal expectation, and an unfair one.

I used to say this about smokers though. At one place I worked smokers were allowed fag breaks when ever it was quiet so some people pissed off out side every couple of hours. I don’t smoke so where’s my breaks?

That is shitty too. And I was the smoker. It should be taken off the break time

Also, employers who offer flexible working tend to attract employees who need it, for whatever reason.
People needing a flexible working environment are less likely to apply for jobs which require long set hours, or would struggle to work as required if they did

Flexible working requests are equally open to those with and without children. In the cases you've cited I would be in touch with my union.

I do think that there is a point to be made about holiday planning. I had to fight tooth and nail to get a week off during the summer hols because I don't have kids. The fact that 1. My ex had a profession that meant he could only take school holidays off and 2. We wanted to go on holiday with my brother and his school age kids, wasn't understood at all. Sometimes non parents have a good reason to take a school holiday. I shouldn't be made to have a crap holiday alone just because I personally don't have kids. The people we holiday with are a factor too.

Its got nothing to do with being a parent or not.

Some people are selfish, some are not.

Management need to manage it ifnits a problem.

If I take time due to kids, I either use holidays or make up the time.

I always keep holidays over so that if child is sick I can use one of them.

I do have a set time I need to leave as I have children to pick up. I've been known to then log on in the evening.

I wouldn't expect anyone to do my washing. I would hide cup in drawer if I didn't have time to watch it.

My kids will be sat in front of the TV over Xmas as I have no childcare and others want the time off.

" I used to say this about smokers though. At one place I worked smokers were allowed fag breaks when ever it was quiet so some people pissed off out side every couple of hours. I don’t smoke so where’s my breaks?"

This is absolutely equally shitty and should also be made allowances for. Other countries (japan I think) have actually given non smokers three extra days of AL a year as this is the time worked out that smokers 'take off' throughout a year for their smoke breaks. I think this is absolutely the correct thing to do. Either that or confine smoking to only be allowed during pre allocated breaks. You don't get any extra to go for a fag.

My post is merely asking why flexible working shouldn't be afforded to everybody

I don't know which bit you are struggling to comprehend:

1. Everybody can request flexible workplaces
2. work places won't let you leave earlier just to pick up the kids - if you go part time you earn a lot less
3. I have never worked in a place where I didn't have to work Xmas just because I gave birth.
4. if you are not a parent, why would you need time off for school runs and hospital appointments for Dc?

All your examples are from hearsay and are at best, examples for not very good employers. Completely pointless post

I understand where you're coming from, OP. I've been asked to change booked days off so that a parent colleague can do something with the kids etc. I've also seen parents get friends to call the office, pretending to be the kids' school, claiming the kid is ill and must be collected, all so the mother could get out of work.
I always had to use leave or make up time for my disability related medical appointments when I was still working, too, yet parents never had to.
There is definitely an imbalance but I dont know what the answer is.

There is no right to flexible working in English law. you can ask but the employer can say no. Many many employers say no to all requests for it( other than I presume the public sector which is a different kind of employer).

I have always just worked full time as a lawyer even with a 2 week old baby.

Seriously get a fucking grip - it isn't a holiday no on wants to be at him with a poorly child cleaning up shit and vomit and I'm sure most can't arsed with the school run - I know I can't. I'd rather be at work.

Seriously? It is perfectly ok to be worn out and frazzled because of that. OPs examples clearly included someone who has caring responsibilities for their father. They probably don't want to have to clean up shit and vomit in that situation either, and a bit of flexibility from an employer (and understanding from colleagues) would go a long way to helping that.

And what the heck, if you have the same job as someone who can ask for and get an early finish for, say, a nativity play, there is no reason to grant an early finish for whatever reason the employee wants as long as they make up the time (as should the parent).

And PP asked why put this on a parenting forum? Judging by the answers a lot of parents really need to wake up to the fact that other people have stuff going on in their lives that require a bit of flexibility too.

The best employers who get the best employees are those who offer excellent working conditions for all their staff at all levels.