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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have no sympathy for alcoholics?

494 replies

Macrometa · 14/05/2020 12:16

I'm the adult child of one, my life has been nothing but completely miserable because of it.

Today in my home town the newspaper ran a story about an alcoholic man who trespassed into the cancer department late at night. He stole two bottles of alcohol sanitizer from a fridge and drank them, he vomited sick and blood on the floor, urinated on the floor and then ripped down a cubicle curtain. He was found by a frightened cleaner the next morning.

The comments are full of people feeling sorry for the bloke, yet no concern for the cleaner who had to deal with the aftermath or the hospital who are now down on vital supplies and have to pay for repairs.

AIBU to have no sympathy for alcoholics?

OP posts:
stayclosetoyourself · 16/05/2020 15:43

Macro- my mum was as hard core as you can get but in the house. Physically addicted and diagnosed with Korsakoff's syndrome and alcohol related brain damage.
If I knew how to PM on the app I will do so !

MrDarcysMa · 16/05/2020 16:04

I can't imagine how ill and desperate you'd have to be to drink hand sanitiser, but I can understand your feelings. You can feel sympathy for the alcoholic and their affected family.

julybaby32 · 16/05/2020 16:13

Someone might have already said this by now, but AlAnon meetings, at least not the ones I have been to, are about condemning the families of alcoholics for how ever they feel. They are not about "fixing" your attitude so that you blame yourself and not the alcoholic. They turned out not to be how I could "fix" me so that I wouldn't be the cause of some one else's alcoholism by being such a bad person that anyone whoever laid eyes on me would be driven to drink. I believed all those things before a friend persuaded me to go to an AlAnon meeting with them.
And the friend..... is an alcoholic. Who has never abused me or treated me like shit. Sorry is someone has already said this. I don't think I can go back and read the bit of the thread. It took a while for me to pull the bits of me that should be courage and aren't together hafter reading some of the previous posters responses to post this. I'm sorry.

Madein1995 · 16/05/2020 16:20

macro I'm really enthralled by them, so honest. They're not all pious holier than thou 'my higher power ' they're just brutally honest, funny and heartbreaking at times.

That sounds so horrible, and it must be so hard watching someone kill themself and not to be able to help. I have a little experience with a guy from na (would not go onto a script or seek support, while robbing shops and dealing drugs across the Welsh border). But my experience is nothing like how hard it must be seeing your mum go through it. I absolutely think you are right for not enabling her.

motheroftwoboys · 16/05/2020 16:26

Alcoholism is a terrible, terrible illness that takes everything away for someone and from their family. If they are very lucky and get the right treatment they can recover and get back to a normal life. Many can't get treatment and die. A desperate alcie will do ANYTHING to get something to drink. Can you imagine being that low? It is a terrible thing to do but terrible suffering has led him to do it.

Whataloadofshite · 16/05/2020 16:45

You cannot recover from alcoholism without help, certainly not effectively, and yes it does sometimes involve medication so no, you can't just decide to stop. You really can't.

If you search for an MRI of an alcoholic brain, you will see the differences as it literally changes the shape and stability of the brain. You can't just switch that off. It needs time and careful weaning to work.

Regardless of that, there is never any excuse for violent and antisocial behaviour, and I wholeheartedly believe that people acting that way NEED to face the consequences of their actions. Gentle handling doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to be hardcore tough with them. It's not at all fair to families and friends who are literally terrorised by the behaviour of a violent alcoholic.

Sometimes empathy means being tough, and anyone here who's sick to death of antisocial behaviours as a result of alcoholism, really do have every right to be. It's just important to remember it's not as easy as just quitting, and the problem is so huge that unless you are wealthy, you have to wait for the right help, and even when you can access it, it's bare minimum.

Macrometa · 16/05/2020 16:58

Will power is key. They need to want to make the change.

If an individual doesn't have willpower and doesn't actually want to get sober then any attempts made at the insistence of family will be futile.

I've lost count of the amount of times my mother has vowed to stop for me and the kids, she's wasting her breath and adding insult to injury by lying, because she has said it herself many times - she doesn't want to stop.

OP posts:
CreepyPasta · 16/05/2020 17:36

Macrometa

Would your Mum be open to reading any books about addiction? Annie Grace ‘The Naked Mind’ is a fairly easy read, and not as full on as some of the AA stuff.

Your Mum sounds a lot like I was. I could also go for weeks without drinking but once I started I could go for 3-4 days without stopping. I’m sorry for what you are going through.

Madein1995 · 16/05/2020 17:50

Completely agree that willpower must be there, or as I call it, the desire to change. In the podcast, the woman mentions burying bottles in the local park so when her family let her out she could sneak a drink. I recall having tablets in every coat or jacket pocket , so scared to run out. I remember trying to control it bu only using on a weekend (and spending weekends comatose on the settee) and by purposely leaving th in my desk drawer and going home for the evening, determined I'd be ok. When my drinking got bad before I switched to tablets, I lived in fear of someone wanting a sip of my coke or lemonade as it contained alcohol. My drinking has never been that bad since, and I'm always grateful I can give someone a swig of my pop in non covid times, without fear
I look back in horror at one time in uni. I'd been drinking and my uni friends (the part time bullies who would hide my phone, I'm a massive people pleaser with low self esteem) were on my case. For an easy life I told them I'd stopped and I hadnt. One day they searched my room, and I was so furious (I dont regret that fury as it was my room and I'm still a bit angry). Two of them stormed off shouting. The 3rd, the one I was closest to and who was the most controlling held a bottle of my vodka. I told her to give her it back she refused, then I told her again. I was very calm and i guess that's what made her listen as it was definitely a warning. She put it down, but therea no doubt that I would have gone mad and possibly hit her if she hadn't . They also threatened to go to the support services FOR me and just genuinely tried tough love. Ultimately though I had to want to stop and I disnt. Didnt help that they were trying to make me change and they got frustrated when I didn't.

With my friend the guy from na, I've had to distance myself. Hes used me for money, kept asking me to buy him shopping and cigarettes and stupid me did
All I was doing was enabling him. I've remembered that I czmt control or change him, so I've stopped texting him and Initiating contact because as a heroin user who pins, I become worried when he doesn't reply. If he wants to call I no longer drop what I'm doing to talk. If he wants ri call 'later' I tell him what time I'm available/ what time I am going to bed and do not answer outside those times. None if those things ar to control him because I cnat. They are simply to safeguard me.

Changingbackinamo · 16/05/2020 19:34

She's not much of a reader CreepyPasta, but I would definitely read those books to better my understanding. Thank you for your kind words.

Madein, you sound like a truly lovely person. I'm alot like you in terms of being a people pleaser. It causes me a great deal of angst because I'm constantly stepping outside my comfort zone to appease people.

Reading your posts and those of others in similar positions I can't help but feel empathy, something I said I had none of for addicts.

The only experience of up close alcoholism I have is that of my DM. I think it has been too easy for me to tar everybody with that same brush iykwin. My mum isn't a very nice person in general most of the time so couple that with the behaviours of an alcoholic she really is unbearable.

Whilst angry with her my judgment can be clouded and I'm guilty of making a sweeping generalisation. If anything this thread has shown me that not all addicts are just shitty people.

Madein1995 · 16/05/2020 21:25

Aw thank you, tbh this thread has made me reflect on who I've hurt in addiction. Not my mum as much because she isnt realy aware, but my dad knows and he must worry though I dont give him details. My best friend must be concerned. My na friend must worry w little because she can tell I've used when I eat crisps for tea, wake up late and text really badly. Even those uni friends must have been worried. To my eternal shame I've gone to work high and I've no doubt that I've probably been short eith service users as I feel like I might throw up.

I get what you mean with personalities. Just because addiction is a disease does not mean the behaviour is acceptable or even nice. My aunt was an addict, who once spat at a nurse while intoxicated , told my mother that I was like a monkey when I was born (1lb 13oz and 11wks early) and should have died, and who once battered a woman with a chain while her 5yo grandson watched. I have no sympathy for her I'm afraid.
My cousin died of alcoholism. He was like an older brother to me and he cared about me. Hed been inside for theft to fund his habit, not acceptable of course but he wasnt violent. He was such a beautiful soul and I cry when I think of him, and have a lot of empathy for him.
I dont think the two people wrte defined bu their illness. It wasnt my aunties illness that made her say vile things or attack people. They wrte just different people with different personalities who happened to share the same poison.

I think quite often the only thing we can do is put in boundaries, and funny enough us recovering addicts are good at that! I guess because weve been through it and know the tricks, I'm quite naive as my poison was pain pills and I wasnt around users or in that lifestyle. I know people in na who would never give another addict money. They wouldnt even put money on an active addicts leccy as its enabling. Those people told me not to buy the guy shopping again and that if I really must, to give him a few Tins of beans and a loaf of bread. They told me all I was doing was freeing up his money for gear.
I think recovering addicts are tough on others. Most non addicts are scared to be 'too harsh '. I remember one guy saying to me 'we all stop taking drugs in the end, it's just weather wrte alive at the end of it.' Whoch really hit home, I tried to argue back but couldn't. It wasnt said angrily as some of my arguments with friends had been, it was honestly one of the kindest and loving ways someone had ever spoken to me.

Im not sure if I remember right as therea sadly so many families of addicts on here, but have you tried family anonymous? Apparently they're really good. I think the families of addicts often get a raw deal. Were all told that most addicts have trauma, the implication being it happened in childhood,implication that family failed to do something. If they try and help, there'll be gossip. If they refuse to help, theres gossip. They cant do right for doing wrong.

The guy in na called this afternoon, claiming hes done and stuff I've heard before. I sent him a link to na zoom. He moaned that his mum is being mean and he has a disease. I pointed out how hard must it be to see someone you love with all your being repeatedly destroy and kill themselves over and over again and you cant stop it? That yes I have a disease, but dihydrocodeine ij itself does not unravel itself and jump down my throat. That when I use I'm choosing to do so knowing what consequences will bring, and I choose not to call a fellow na person or whatever
You could tell he wasnt pleased as he wanted someone to validate him but I wouldny. I used to play the victim so much a part of me still does. But ultimately we all have actions and consequences. If I choose to use in work then sadly I risk my job. If I choose to use I risk pissing someone off. They're my choices.

Whatisthisfuckery · 17/05/2020 11:01

My XH is an alcoholic. A 180 units and proud of it kind of alcoholic, or he was. He couldn’t give up cold turkey even if he wanted to because it could kill him.

He was always a deeply unpleasant man, violent, emotionally and financially abusive to both me and our DS. The drink didn’t make him that way, it just made it much worse. He’s the kind of man who was happy for me and his DS to live in poverty to punish me for leaving him.

Still, I pity the man he has become. He’s destroyed himself through drinking. I can’t stand the bloke and would be happy never to see or hear of him again but still I wouldn’t choose for him to suffer like he has. Alcoholism is truly devastating, for the alcoholic and everyone around them, and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

I’ll stay as far away from addicts as long as I live after having the experience I’ve had, but it doesn’t mean I don’t pity them.

Madein1995 · 18/05/2020 13:22

I think 0ften the pain caused to families of the addict, is overlooked. And it's not right or fair.

Hiccupsonthetrain · 02/09/2021 22:23

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WhenISnappedAndFarted · 02/09/2021 22:32

My Mum is a recovering alcoholic, she was an alcoholic for all of my childhood and a lot of my adulthood. She got to the point where she was told she had to stop now or had weeks to live and I'm still amazed she managed to stop.

My DM was sexually abused throughout her childhood by her Dad, she was raped twice in teenage years, she had a live changing accident at the age of 23, she married an arsehole who beat her almost to death all by the age of 26. She escaped from all of this, somehow survived it and I came along a few years later when she met my Dad.

She couldn't cope and drank to forget. This drinking had such a negative impact on me and my siblings, I had to bring them up and had to deal with an awful lot including her horrible behaviour.

But, I still felt sorry for her, I had a lot of sympathy even though she was behaving like a dick. She's been through so much and in some way I could understand why she drunk because I don't know how I would have been able to cope if I were her.

People don't want to be alcoholics, nobody does. It doesn't excuse their behaviour because they put people through shit but I still have sympathy for them.

XenoBitch · 02/09/2021 22:34

@Hiccupsonthetrain

I have respect for alcoholics in recovery, none whatsoever for active alcoholics and certainly no sympathy.

I think it's a fucking disgrace to call it a disease in the same way that cancer is, or a brain tumour, or comparing it to things like bipolar that people don't bring onto themselves.

Shame on those of you who draw such comparisons, what an insult to the innocent people going through chemotherapy and various other gruelling treatments for something they didn't cause or deserve.

Active alcoholics = weak willed and pathetic.

As if they have no control over their limbs when reaching for a drink and pouring it down their throats.

"Oh but the trauma they must have endured' oh boohoo, who hasn't?

Just pathetic.

Alcoholism is an addiction and a form of self harm. No one sets out to become an addict. Drinking could be initially be used as a coping mechanism and it ends up spiralling and ridiculously hard to stop. Other forms of self-harm, such as intentional self-injury, can go down the same path. Swap 'alcoholic' for 'cutter', and see how horrid your post sounds.
berryhead2013 · 02/09/2021 22:43

My husband has an alcoholic friend of 30 odd years we have supported hithrougj thick and thin emotionally physically and financially
And he has treated us like shite he took out loads of debt in our name and address so we were receiving debt letters
He had an amazing chance in a fully funded rehab centre but he fucked it and is now a smack head we have nothing to do with him anymore and had to regrettably involve the police to get the debts cleared
I try really hard to have sympathy for him but it's got him no where he needs to just duck off now he has hurt us so much

Hiccupsonthetrain · 02/09/2021 23:03

Swap 'alcoholic' for 'cutter', and see how horrid your post sounds.

'Cutters' are only hurting themselves though aren't they, whereas alcoholics just offload their pain onto everybody else.

We have generations of damaged adults because their parents cared more for a drink.

People end up going to therapy to deal with the effects of people who won't go to therapy.

If it's a disease then it's the only one in the world that affects those around the sufferer, more than the sufferer themselves.

Total cop out and serves only to absolve the selfish fuckers of any responsibility which suits them just fine I'm sure.

scarpa · 02/09/2021 23:25

@Hiccupsonthetrain

I have respect for alcoholics in recovery, none whatsoever for active alcoholics and certainly no sympathy.

I think it's a fucking disgrace to call it a disease in the same way that cancer is, or a brain tumour, or comparing it to things like bipolar that people don't bring onto themselves.

Shame on those of you who draw such comparisons, what an insult to the innocent people going through chemotherapy and various other gruelling treatments for something they didn't cause or deserve.

Active alcoholics = weak willed and pathetic.

As if they have no control over their limbs when reaching for a drink and pouring it down their throats.

"Oh but the trauma they must have endured' oh boohoo, who hasn't?

Just pathetic.

Incredible lack of empathy or understanding of addiction there.

Addiction is classed as a disease for very good reason. You can be pre-disposed to it like you can heart disease, for example. And like heart disease (and plenty of other illnesses - anorexia, liver disease, lung cancer, skin cancer), people can play an active role in developing that disease in the first place. But it doesn't mean that once its taken effect we should have no sympathy.

Should we stop feeling sorry for desperately ill people with eating disorders because they seemingly 'chose' not to eat, or to purge? What about someone who develops skin cancer and goes through that gruelling chemo you mention - after all, they've been on holiday to the Caribbean and deliberately exposed themselves to sun, so fuck them, right? And the person whose poverty or lack of knowledge or disability or whatever means that they live on ready meals and processed food and develop heart disease because of it - should we just tell them to fuck off, too?

Continuing to drink even though it's ruining your life is not the cause: it's a symptom. Yes, we can all choose whether we have our first drink in life, or our regular glass of wine after work, or whatever. But once addiction, the disease, has taken hold, the drinking then is a symptom of that illness as much as any other.

I worked in addiction services for a while and I can tell you now that I have seen people re-admit themselves, time and time again, desperate to get better. Desperate to be free of it. Knowing that this time if they didn't, their kids would be taken or they'd become homeless or they'd be getting a divorce. Determined to turn things around. And time and time again, they wouldn't be able to beat it, and they'd hit rock bottom and then they'd try again. You couldn't convince me that was something they were enjoying for all the money in the world.

wheretoliveplz · 02/09/2021 23:27

Some people on this thread show the pure ignorance surrounding addiction.

Hiccupsonthetrain · 02/09/2021 23:35

I worked in addiction services for a while and I can tell you now that I have seen people re-admit themselves, time and time again, desperate to get better. Desperate to be free of it. Knowing that this time if they didn't, their kids would be taken or they'd become homeless or they'd be getting a divorce

How many of those people did get sober, keep their kids, save their marriages?

LukeEvansWife · 02/09/2021 23:39

ZOMBIE ZOMBIE ZOMBIE ZOMBIE

Thread is over a year old

Hiccupsonthetrain · 02/09/2021 23:40

You go into a palliative care setting and tell those people dying of cancer, MND, CF etc that in order to survive they just have to stop doing XYZ. I guarantee they'd do that and whatever else it takes. Not active alcoholics though. It's too haaaaard Hmm

It can be done as evidenced by the many in recovery.

It's won't, not can't.

Hiccupsonthetrain · 02/09/2021 23:41

@LukeEvansWife

ZOMBIE ZOMBIE ZOMBIE ZOMBIE

Thread is over a year old

So what it's an interesting debate.
scarpa · 02/09/2021 23:49

@Hiccupsonthetrain

I worked in addiction services for a while and I can tell you now that I have seen people re-admit themselves, time and time again, desperate to get better. Desperate to be free of it. Knowing that this time if they didn't, their kids would be taken or they'd become homeless or they'd be getting a divorce

How many of those people did get sober, keep their kids, save their marriages?

It very much depended on: the level of support they had to engage with treatment (a good social worker, supportive family, DWP case officer who worked with us to ensure they weren't left with no money even if they struggled to get to appointments); their ACE scores (the higher, the more likely they seemed to be to relapse); the drug of choice (didn't always correlate, but some more physically addictive than others); whether there were comorbidities (schizophrenic + an addict = harder to treat than someone with no comorbidities, as an example).

I assume the point you're trying to make is that addicts say they're trying to get better and don't really mean it. I'm telling you that that's not even 10% of the bigger picture.

A young woman with history of child sex abuse and domestic violence, suffering from other mental illnesses, with a shitty (or, more often, overworked and underresourced) social worker, no stable place to stay... that's like treating a broken leg while the rest of the body is on fire (if you'll forgive the horrible metaphor), no matter how desperately she wants to get clean and how much she hates the addiction. And while the inverse isn't always true, because all the privilege and support in the world doesn't necessarily correlate to an easier treatment path, it's generally more likely.

Willpower alone (or, as you assume, lack of it) is not the whole story. Nor is wanting it. Addiction needs to be treated holistically (in the medical sense, not spiritually).

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