To think people shouldn't be guilted into still paying their cleaner, tutor, gardener etc?

[selfemployedconfused]

I've seen a lot of threads on here lately debating whether or not you should still pay for your cleaner, gardener, tutor etc. If you haven't been furloughed / financially affected and can genuinely afford it then fair enough, but AIBU to think that you shouldn't feel guilted into having to pay when you aren't receiving a service?

I am a self employed tutor and approximately 50% of my clients have stopped lessons as they aren't happy to continue online and they have stopped paying me. They have all said they are happy to continue tutoring once school resumes. I didn't once question or think about their finances, my attitude was that they aren't receiving the service for the time being so why should they continue to pay me every week?

I also employ a cleaner and I haven't been paying her as she obviously hasn't been able to clean... we were both fine with this and it didn't occur to me that I might be being unreasonable. I don't feel hard done by for my own clients not paying for a service they aren't receiving, and I didn't feel bad for not paying my cleaner until I read some threads on here. Everyone is in a difficult position at the moment and I think some of the judgement and making people feel guilty on here is strange!

YABU = Yes people should feel guilty about no longer paying.
YANBU = No people shouldn't feel guilty about no longer paying.

[Kokeshi123]

It's a nice thing to do if possible. But I am self employed and my clients are not paying me. I have to think of my own cashflow as well.

[unlimiteddilutingjuice]

Abracad Thank you!!
This is what i was too polite grandiloquent to say.

[unlimiteddilutingjuice]

"But I am self employed and my clients are not paying me"

Thats fine Kokeshi123
Some people have been really hammered by this. Some people have just saved themselves the cost of a commute.
Everyone knows which one applied to them.

If you're in the second catagory, you pitch in.

[unlimiteddilutingjuice]

applies to them

[Tumbleweed101]

Our nursery isn’t charging parents while they’re closed and we stayed open for key worker children. We’re operating at a loss and still don’t know if the insurance will cover these losses. If a nursery has kept charging it’s likely they’d close otherwise. Government funding hasn’t cover the real cost of care for many years.

[multivac]

Also, it's great that there is 'government help' for the self-employed; of course it is. I loathe the tories - but the schemes they have put in place for job retention and self-employed support are, I would say, pretty good, as far as they are able to go. However, please don't kid yourself that this 'support' means that everyone getting it will be fine and dandy, and not at risk from slipping into poverty, and losing livelihoods and homes.

While we're on the subject, I'm also paying for a holiday I'm not taking this year. The money has gone; I budgeted (and I might add, saved pretty fucking hard) for it. I haven't 'lost' any money - I've lost an experience, that's all. And as the holiday is somewhere we go every year, where the camp owners rely entirely on people like us to make a living, and where I very much want to go back as soon as it is possible, why on earth would I not leave that money where it can go towards keeping the place afloat?

Many people on this thread have asked: 'why on earth would I pay for a service I'm not receiving?', as though it were a rhetorical question. But in fact, there are several, perfectly sensible reasons why one might do that - which are nothing to do with virtue signalling, guilt, or being the kind of loopy lefty who thinks everyone should get 'free money'...

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

If someone is paying their cleaner but then loses their job as a result of the covid situation, and can no longer afford the cleaner, will the cleaner continue to clean their house for free?

[multivac]

If someone is paying their cleaner but then loses their job as a result of the covid situation, and can no longer afford the cleaner, will the cleaner continue to clean their house for free?

I can't imagine why they would. Thing is, you see, 'having one's house cleaned' is what we call a "luxury". Receiving enough income to keep a roof over one's head and feed one's family is what we call a "necessity". HTH.

[BarbaraofSeville]

Don't assume that every self employed person is getting government help. There are a lot of gaps in the scheme and not just those who haven't fully declared their income.

Anyone who started their self employment in the last couple of years won't get anything.

If they've been on maternity leave during the qualifying years, they'll get little or nothing.

Probably not relevant to cleaners, but anyone earning over £50k will get nothing. Fine that many will have savings, but if you're a successful tradesperson earning £50k or so, supporting a family in a high cost area, you're not exactly going to be rolling in money.

Anyone who has been both employed and self employed, which is very common in certain industries, need to have most of their income from self employment in the qualifying year(s) to qualify.

DP just missed out because in the relevant year, his SE income was 48% of his total income. He usually gets most of his income from festivals and gigs and we all know how that's looking for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, he's doing some agency work in another sector, but many aren't so lucky.

Plus, as yet, the SE help only runs for 3 months, while furlough for PAYE has been extended until October.

[beautifulstranger101]

If someone is paying their cleaner but then loses their job as a result of the covid situation, and can no longer afford the cleaner, will the cleaner continue to clean their house for free

haha! exactly- of course they wont.
Apparently the "be kind and pay" expectation only flows in one direction it seems!

[multivac]

Apparently the "be kind and pay" expectation only flows in one direction it seems!

Erm yes. From the person who has something, to the person who doesn't, generally. See my post above regarding the difference between a 'luxury' and a 'necessity'.

Honestly, if you think that's a killer argument I genuinely despair for humanity...

[AlternativePerspective]

Well,charging for non existent childcare and holidays etc is illegal so if people do pay it should only be by choice.

Plus as hard as it is to say that that person’s business may fold as a result, the reality is that in life people go out of business all the time for various reasons.

If the restaurant down the road is in trouble should people give them money so they don’t close?

If the shop doesn’t have a certain product in because they were unable to source it should you pay for it anyway because they’re losing the income from that particular product?

If the cleaner can’t come into your house then you will be cleaning your own house and thus not need their services for that time. Plus as a cleaner they can pick up where they left off once restrictions are lifted. Ditto for childcare, esp childminders. Nurseries charge a fortune anyway, anyone who thinks that it’s reasonable for nurseries to continue to demand such exorbitant fees even though they’re not providing childcare is unreasonable.

[DeeplyMovingExperience]

I love my cleaners. They are the hardest-working women I know. Both are single parents with kids to feed. I will keep paying them even though I too am self-employed and not receiving any pay right now.

[unlimiteddilutingjuice]

Well, charging for non existent childcare and holidays etc is illegal

I'm not sure this is true. Its quite normal in some situations to pay a retainer to secure access to a service in future.

[BarbaraofSeville]

YANBU. These people have chosen self employment over regular employment; there are benefits and downsides to that. One downside is the uncertainty in times like these

It's also wrong to assume that everyone is self employed by choice. Proper PAYE jobs are hard to come by in some industries because employers don't want to commit to people having the right to holidays, sick pay, redundancy pay etc.

So they tell people that they are 'self employed' when that's only the case for tax and employment purposes, but they do the job just like any genuine employee.

HMRC are trying to crack down on it, but industry always seems to be one step ahead and often it's the poor builder, stagehand or supply teacher who's stuck in the middle of it all - it's not all contractors on X hundred pounds a day who are in this situation. I know some people prefer the freedom of contracting, but many would much prefer the security of a regular job.

Then you have those who are self employed because they've been unable to fit an employed job in with family commitments or their partner's job, especially if they can't get a regular shift pattern so they can arrange childcare, or work when their partner is at home to look after their children.

[cooliebrown]

our dance teacher is doing on-line lessons. They're a bit rubbish tbh, but we're happily paying every week because we want her dance school to still be going after COVID....

[Iloveplacentas]

I love my cleaner, she is excellent and has cleaned for me for years. I don’t want to lose her and I don’t want her to struggle. So I’m paying her. Luckily my finances are the same so I can afford to. If I had lost my job or I didn’t have a good relationship with her then I may not have. Mostly I want her to return when it’s all over, of she wasn’t good at her job then I wouldn’t care if she came back or not.

[WitchQueenofDarkness]

This thread is certainly illuminating.

[Abracad]

YANBU. These people have chosen self employment over regular employment; there are benefits and downsides to that. One downside is the uncertainty in times like these

“These people”

Fuck
Me

[multivac]

This thread is certainly illuminating
I'm afraid it is.

[SpokeTooSoon]

Our dance teacher is providing rubbish lessons via YouTube. It’s the basic lesson she uploaded the first week with a little bit extra added each week - very low effort! Others are doing live zoom lessons. Mine have given up it’s so boring and no opportunity to interact or see buddies.

Those who have really put the effort in and adapted their business are the ones who will survive this.

[SpokeTooSoon]

We were asked to pay half the usual fees for this. It’s not that much so I decided to pay the full amount. Definitely not getting a fair deal.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

I think it's disingenuous for people to say that they're not paying because their cleaner should have been declaring income, when they've often been paying below the living wage

If anyone IS paying less than the living wage I'll agree, but I can't think of many cleaners who charge less than £9.30 an hour - round here, double that is more usual

And once again nobody's said what those who expect paying are doing to protect clients' money against the risk of them closing down permanently ...

[Alaimo]

No cleaner here, but there are services here that I've continued to pay for even though I can't access them at the moment. Mostly local social enterprises that I don't want to go under. I still get paid my normal wage so see no reason not to support businesses/organisations that I hope will be active again post-lockdown.

[zingally]

I also work as a private tutor in kids homes.
It honestly never occurred to me to expect the parents to pay me if they're not receiving tutoring. And even if it had, I would never have asked for it.
Is it frustrating to be down on income? Yes. Am I poorer? Yes. Is it my client's problem? No.