To think people shouldn't be guilted into still paying their cleaner, tutor, gardener etc?

[selfemployedconfused]

I've seen a lot of threads on here lately debating whether or not you should still pay for your cleaner, gardener, tutor etc. If you haven't been furloughed / financially affected and can genuinely afford it then fair enough, but AIBU to think that you shouldn't feel guilted into having to pay when you aren't receiving a service?

I am a self employed tutor and approximately 50% of my clients have stopped lessons as they aren't happy to continue online and they have stopped paying me. They have all said they are happy to continue tutoring once school resumes. I didn't once question or think about their finances, my attitude was that they aren't receiving the service for the time being so why should they continue to pay me every week?

I also employ a cleaner and I haven't been paying her as she obviously hasn't been able to clean... we were both fine with this and it didn't occur to me that I might be being unreasonable. I don't feel hard done by for my own clients not paying for a service they aren't receiving, and I didn't feel bad for not paying my cleaner until I read some threads on here. Everyone is in a difficult position at the moment and I think some of the judgement and making people feel guilty on here is strange!

YABU = Yes people should feel guilty about no longer paying.
YANBU = No people shouldn't feel guilty about no longer paying.

[SonnyRobes]

@Bflatmajorsharp I meant that the nursery must be making an insane profit - think about it.
Nurseries usually have to pay business rates, rent, insurance, staff, food and bills. Their money comes from people paying fees and government funding.
During coronavirus nurseries are still allowed to charge full fees and are getting full government funding. On top of that, they're not having to pay business rates, not paying most of their staff, getting a government grant and paying less in bills and food.
If their income has gone up and their outgoings have gone down then they must be making a massive profit.

[vanillandhoney]

If they havent been completing a tax return, well- thats on them for doing something illegal isnt it?

Why does everyone assume that those who don't qualify for help are those who have scammed the system in some way?

If you're a new business and have been trading less than a year you don't qualify for the self-employed furlough scheme, you just get universal credit. It doesn't matter that lots of those people have paid their tax via PAYE for years - they get nothing. But employed people who may have only been working since February get 80% of their pay until October!

The system is flawed and doesn't protect the self employed.

[GreenTeaMug]

I am paying ours. She has been with us for 18 years and has gone over and above on may an occasion. Once we went away for a week and our alarm malfunctioned. She could not fix it, and the alarm people said they would not go in the house unless a householder was there. She came in twice a day and rearranged the curtains and put lights on and off for us (did not tell us until afterwards).

She's worth every penny, and we would do anything to keep her happy. :)

[LucieLucie]

I'm a childminder and agree with you in general.

I'm one who's not eligible for any help from the government. Fortunately I have been able to continue business on a very limited basis with children of key workers. One parent who can't use me at the moment was adamant she would continue to pay full fees as she wants to help ensure I'm there when things go back to normal, the rest just left without a care in the world. Some who originally said they'd continue to pay didn't (school staff who are in full pay at home) .

I'm not a charity case and my business is my responsibility but I will be starting from scratch again effectively and new rates will be in place to reflect the losses and to protect myself financially a bit more. There will be no sibling discount, no term time only contracts and no favours.

When the shit hits the fan you need to have enough to get through anything.

[AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter]

Why does everyone assume that those who don't qualify for help are those who have scammed the system in some way

I am referring to a prior cleaning thread I have seen before whereby people said their cleaners requested that they only pay them in cash.
When someone requests only cash payments its pretty obvious why.
Thats what I am referring to.

[vanillandhoney]

When someone requests only cash payments its pretty obvious why.

Not everyone who gets paid in cash fiddles their taxes. Why are there so many negative stereotypes around the self-employed at the moment?

[MusicianTom]

Estimates vary as to how many self- employed people are not eligible for support, but it includes anyone who started in self employment since April 2019, and anyone whose profits are over 50k. Compare that with the furlough scheme, where there is no restriction of length of time employed for eligibility, only that you were employed on a certain date, and there is no cut-off of salary whereby if you earn over (say) 50k, you are not eligible. The self employed support scheme is not fair and if you can afford to support someone like a cleaner or music teacher, you should.

[selfemployedconfused]

I teach from Reception all the way up to Year 11. I have lost a lot of tutees that were in Year 11 as they will no longer be sitting exams. Should their parents have continued to pay me up until June when they would have sat their exams?
I have also lost a lot of tutees simply because they don't want to do online tuition, or don't want tutoring on top of the mountains of school work they have got to organise and get through at the moment. It didn't even cross my mind that they should still be paying me, or that I should still be paying the cleaner, until I read some of the threads on here.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

You're NBU at all, OP, but I confess I'm surprised at the vote, considering all the threads were folk are deemed a (insert obscenity) if they don't pay

What interests me is what provision those who expect paying are making to protect their clients' money in case they have to close down permanently ... I've asked about this numerous times but never yet had an answer

[Stuckforthefourthtime]

I think that cleaners are a little different. Many are women with very little money, often speaking little English, with employers paying less because it's cash in hand, and no employment rights. Yes, cleaners should declare, but many are not making much as it is. Even those that do declare might not be eligible for any self employed payment because they don't have the tax return history (this is the case for our cleaner). I think that then if you are being paid to work from home, it's reasonable to keep paying your cleaner, and we are still doing so. It's also about sharing your luck - we fully appreciate that we are lucky to both be employed right now on full pay, and want to spread what we can.

For tutoring, driving instruction etc, it's better paid per hour, with likely a decent self employment history and more opportunity to find socially distanced work during lockdown. I'd probably pay for a couple of sessions then leave it.

[AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter]

Not everyone who gets paid in cash fiddles their taxes

I totally agree! so if they've done a tax return then they should qualify for help shouldn't they?

I do feel for people who havent had the chance to do a tax return who have just started to be self employed. But if people cant afford to pay them then they cant afford it.

[gluteustothemaximus]

Have you applied for the grant today OP? As long as you have tax returns completed for 16/17 , 17/18 and 18/19 you'll get 3 months pay at 80%.

[lyralalala]

I'm very glad that both my childminder and my cleaner found other work and requested not to be paid. The CM opened to key workers (none others in the village have, but she's promised not to drop her regular families after this) and my lovely cleaner moved into a house shared by some elderly people as a cleaner/carer/housekeeper. I'm not sure what will happen after this. I would have been in a dilemma over both, our household income hasn't reduced, but costs have gone up considerably.

Re nurseries though - they haven't all been able to furlough all their staff. Many were caught out by the fact that it came out that they couldn't both furlough and get the money for the free hours. They've had to work out percentages and stuff. They won't have been left with the early years money to cover rent, insurances and the likes so I think some will be in trouble after this.

[selfemployedconfused]

I only accept cash - not because I am fiddling the system - but because I was constantly chasing people for payment and bank transfers and it got really frustrating and a logistical nightmare. They have to pay in cash at the start of the lesson, otherwise the lesson doesn't take place. It's got nothing to do with tax fiddling or being dodgy.

[selfemployedconfused]

I have been able to apply for the grant, thank you x

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

I do feel for people who havent had the chance to do a tax return who have just started to be self employed

So do I, but it wears a bit thin with the minority who've been working for years and then claim they were "just waiting to see how the business went", "didn't know what to do" or "never got round to it"

I tried pointing out to one of these that they've already had plenty of "benefit" in the tax they didn't pay, but predictably it wasn't well received

[Rhayader]

I think the attitude towards this has changed the longer the situation has continued. In the early days everyone was saying you should pay them but now we have been in lockdown for 2 months the mood has changed.

We paid our cleaner 4 weeks notice saying that we couldn’t commit to paying her indefinitely for a service we weren’t receiving and we had no idea how long it would go on. We don’t have a contract with her so didn’t have to pay anything but she’s lovely and it didn’t seem right to just have a cliff edge.

[StarkintheSouth]

I think it very much depends on your situation and obviously you need to do what makes you feel comfortable and secure. I pay our cleaner even though she’s not coming in. Both DH and I have full salaries at the moment and with DD being at home not really paying nursery fees. As I only get in her a couple times a month I feel like I can still pay. My cleaner is a mother and her partner is high risk so i imagine neither will be working. If my situation changes then sadly this will be an expense I might not be able to justify but if I can help someone even just a little then I want to. But it would have been reasonable for me to not pay too. I don’t think we should judge anyone for making a decision like this.

[SpokeTooSoon]

Gardeners can still work, can’t they? They usually use their own equipment and don’t come through the house. My neighbours have theirs every Friday morning - he fires up the mower at 8am!!

[Magicbabywaves]

I’m still paying my child’s piano teacher (she does a zoom lesson), my cleaner and someone else for something. We haven’t lost any money to our income and I want to support these people.

[HeretoThereandBackAgain]

I’m certainly not paying mine, even though our income hasn’t changed. They used to be great, but the original owner of the business retired and sold it on. Since then, their standards have dropped and I recently learned that they’ve been charging for hours they then didn’t do (have to pay in advance). They’ve kept operating despite the lockdown (in our state residential cleaners were supposed to be banned). I got an email which thanked customers who kept paying, which felt like a dig at those who didn’t. It’s the last straw, so I’m dropping them and going to find someone else once this is over. Cleaners are hard to come by round here, so I was going to wait until later in the year when I had more time to find someone else, but the expectation of being paid just now feels cheeky so I’m dumping them now.

[Feelinghistoric]

My mother has been paying her cleaner in cash, and in hindsight the cleaner never declared a penny of it, so now can’t get the self-employed support. It’s tricky. I think she’d be happy to top up, but it’s a bit crap having not paid tax for years. (The cleaner is my mother’s luxury - she hates cleaner and probably earns less than the cleaner once she has paid tax.)

[Feelinghistoric]

Hates cleaning not the cleaner!

[mrscampbellblackagain]

I have paid my cleaner through out lockdown as I think it is the right thing to do.

My husband has also paid his PT in spite of not seeing him.

I have also deferred holidays etc because I want businesses to survive.

We are impacted financially as is pretty much everyone but not to the extent of other people. So we decided the right thing to do was to continue to pay for services we usually do.

Also paying school fees for a very different offering to usual.

Everyone has to do what they think is right.

[Witchlight]

I think the reason cleaners and gardeners are a bit different, is that they are allowed into your home. Generally you are on first name basis with them and may even know their families.

My cleaner has been with me for over 30 years now, excepting two periods of maternity leave. I know her partner and children. The whole family will have been hit by the current situation. Her other work is in social care (part-time)and is quite fraught atm. Someone has to look after the vulnerable.

My gardener is in the isolate for 12 weeks group. He has been with me for 6 years.

My income has been affected slightly, but not dramatically, so I will do what I can to help and carry on paying. I hope they both know I will always do what I can to help if things are difficult. It is what I expected from my employer before I retired! Why should they not expect reasonable treatment from me.

So I’m cleaning my home myself and trying to keep up with the garden, whilst appreciating quite how much easier they generally make my life.

Of course, this is a luxurious position to take and only applies to those who can afford it. It should not be “guilted” on anyone.