to always feel on the outside looking in.

[lucyellensmum]

Honestly, i feel like a social bloody paraih. Its back to M&T time etc and i was looking forward to it, but today i got a reminder of how shit these things make me feel. Went to baby music, now this is very alpha mummy boden wearing cliqey and not anything i thought i would enjoy but DD LOVES it, so we go religeously. There is a cafe in the centre and i often go there for a coffee, why is it then that i am sat there on a table on my own with DD, whilst the place throngs with other mothers who seem to have so much to say to each other. Dont get me wrong, people arent horrible to me or anything, perfectly pleasant and friendly, i just can seem to get past the small talk and oh, how is DD stage, i do all that and they move on. This is like being back at school but worse, because now i am worried that my DD is going to mis out on forming little friendships as i can't seem to get other mothers to see me as anything other than the tired, scruffy looking mother who sits in the corner talking to her two year old.

lolola, you tart! you are taking the piss now

id be fecking mortified if anyone in RL recognised me from on here, but then if they did, they would run a mile!!

with a capital T baby! bloody hell lucy, just realised you started the thread. x x

If its any comfort: I used to go to a M & T group where I would regularly meet up with a group of friends I knew from NCT. We would sometimes go out for lunch after etc. I am sure to an outsider we looked like a cliquey group of wotsits (although not at all Yummy) but we were just pleased to see each other after a long, lonely week of full-time SAHM-dom. We would never knowingly have been unfriendly to anyone, but we were so busy catching up on each other's news and keeping an eye on the dcs, that there really wasn't time to "work the room" as it were.

If you are feeling lonely in such a place, it isn't really worth the effort to try and break into a group of established friends. They may already have as many friends as they want. Look out for the other people on their own.

Have been in both situations, so do understand what it means.

Havent read all the thread but am feeling the same way. Mine is slightly different as its actually at school. DD1 has started and after three weeks I feel like a total outsider. The other mums turn up perfect hair and make up etc all chatting together and I feel like the nerd on the outskirts. I have tried general chit chat but just get ignored the next morning. My concern is for my DD as she seems like me and hasnt mixed with anyone and I fear she will feel excluded. Its early days but it does make you feel down and like you have something wrong with you. DD1 has been invited to a birthday party by what looks like the 'popular' girl in the group. We said we'd go but today she comes home and says the girl in question was horrible to her and woouldnt let her sit next to anyone. Also whilst I waited outside for her her mum was chatting to another mum and staring over at me and laughing!(Can only assume laughter was at snot on my top from DD2 but we cant all be perfect!) Seriously I felt like I was 11, back at school. Now I dont want to go to party as dont want to feel more pissed off but feel if we dont go it will make it worse. Sorry, waffled on and only really wanted to say I am with you on this one Lucy but seems from whats on here we are possibly in the majority?

Winston, are you sure those two mums were staring over at you and laughing? Honestly? I'm sorry but it just seems so unlikely. When you (I mean everyone, myself included, by this) is feeling a bit insecure it is possible to imagine all sorts of imaginary conversations about you between other people, when really the conversation wasn't about you at all.

This happened to me the other day. I was with two women I know on one side of the road. On the other side was a mutual friend who happened to look over and wave at us. Just as she did so, I said something funny and entirely unrelated to her (to do with the conversation I was having with the other mums before she looked over and waved) and we all burst out laughing. I would hope she thought to herself "they're having a good laugh about something" rather than "they've having a bitchy conversation about me". Because thats all it was.

IME women are really not as bitchy as they're cracked up to be. I hope. .

You may well be right DH and I do hope thats the case. I wouldnt class myself as paranoid so took my instinct of the laughing being aimed at me as true. I think its the fact they did keep looking over that made it worse and made ny think it was about me.

I agree women arent as bitchy as they are said to be (infact work experience makes me think men are worse!) but those types are out there.

I felt the same when DD started pre-school. Everyone else seemed to know each other and I didn't know anyone. A friend suggested I just start chatting to people so I 'went for it' and smiled and commented on their children etc. Then the next time I was waiting outside the gate, these women would smile and say hello. It made me realise that a lot of people probably only know each other very superficially. A lady was talking to me yesterday and it sounded like she knew me really well and I have only spoken to her a few times. Now DD is nearly leaving pre-school a year later, it makes me realise how quickly you go from being the new mum to the old-hand at the pre-school gate. I wouldn't say I know any of them at all well but I know a lot more people to say hello to when we bump into each other around town and, who knows, I may meet them again when DD starts school.

Ireally do think it's just a matter of time. I was just the same with DD1, but gradually, as we persevered with outher groups, I started to see faces I'd seen elsewhere and it was easy to break the ice with "I know you from somewhere but I can't think where". The older they get, the more contacts you have from different groups, nursery, etc, until you do suddenly realise you belong more than some of the newer faces - and actually, you're still not talking about in-depth things, and not really socialising with anyone exept perhaps the odd one or two you see on a daily basis at nursery.
By way, do not use ice-breaker "Oh, I didn't know you were expecting. Congratulations" when trying to strike up conversation with relative stranger. She wasn't!! Not recommended.

I find one of the best ways to get on at M&T groups is to talk about things OTHER than the DCs. Quite honestly we go to M&T groups so the little monkeys can go off and play and so we can have some ADULT conversations with other mums (and dads).

If you want to get to know the mums ask them questions: how on earth do you get your hair so shiny is good. Or I went to a new pub last week, have you been? (Which you can then get round to: would you like to go, we could meet for a drink/coffee.

Also some M&T groups are very cliquey and you have to serve out one term before they warm to you (I know ficking ridiculous) - I subvert this with gentle mocking of the ubermummy who everyone hates because of her exulted status.

LEM, I'm stumbling into this thread way past closing time, but FWIW, from your threads you seem like a fine person and one that anyone would be proud of knowing, mascara, pyjamas, weetabix stains or whatever.Some people are arsey, but mostly people are just shy/busy/socially inept etc, so if you can bring yourself to be "american" as someone put it, that would be great. Hang on in there and try and vary the groups so you get different social experiences. And enjoy the time with your dd; it's precious. I used to find people who clearly enjoyed hanging out with their children - not in an alpha way - in a tired, relaxed way - very attractive as potential friends.

Adult conversation is an urban myth. Well, anyway, it doesn't exist until you are over the first friendship hurdles and at a small table in the local bistro with two or three of these other mums and two or three bottles of wine. The nearest you can get at M&T is the parting shot "I've really enjoyed talking to you today, maybe we could get together one evening to talk about something other than kids".
I have two Ubermummy friends. One is very controlling, always advising me on my hair, make-up, clothes, the need for quality-me-time. I happen to know that privately she is quite unhappy with her lot in life and the way it has worked out, so I take a deep breath usually and take none of her advice.
My other Ubermummy friend can talk to anyone about anything, is tall and glamorous, knows how to do absolutely anything, etc etc. I confessed to her (in the local bistro) my social ineptitude and she was shocked. However, she acts as a sort of bridge between me and others, and is very good at including (or forcing) me in things. Thank God for her.
Micra - about ten years ago a schoolgate Mum said to me 'I'm so pleased you're having another one after all you've been through'. I replied 'I am not having another one I am just a bit fat at the moment'.
Still see that woman sometimes. The years haven't been kind to her, ha, ha.

On the flipside though I used to be part of a large group of M&Ters and it can be just as lonely. Listening to some of the more confident and competetive members of the group. I wasn't a homeowner then but it used to drive me to drink listening to all the inane talk of how they had outgrown their 4 bed detached housing. How they were going to queue up at 5.00am for the latest teletubby so their 1 year old wouldn't be upset on Christmas day. I could go on and on.

It wasn't until one day I had been to one of the M&Ters homes for lunch - where there were about 8 of us. I left at the same time as one of the quieter members of the group and it turned out she felt just as lonely and miserable. After that day we would meet
on our own and stopped seeing the others.

This was over 10 years ago now and it was one of the most depressing times for me.
I put my ds into a nursery 2 mornings a week and I would use my time to either go shopping, have a coffee or go the gym. I met quite a few new friends at the gym. I saw it as a win win situation my ds was interacting with other adults and children and I was having wonderful me time.
In a word what I'm trying to say is you don't have to put yourself through M & T hell there are other ways.
11 years on I have a well adjusted confident boy who didn't fall apart because he didn't attend m&t hell.

Good point youralias! We should remember we don't have to put ourselves or our los through anything until the LEA start sending letters. But sometimes you do get brainwashed into thinking 'we should, we should'. You know yourself, you know your little one, you know where you want them to be heading. Which baby/child care guru coined the 'happy mummy, happy baby' thing?

Know just how you feel, Lucy. To me, it often seems like playground politics all over again. And so I opt out - do my own thing - which is what I did at school. Not entirely sure it always 'works' - worry a bit about ds mixing enough. But we have a few good friends with kids, and so tend to stick more with playdates, of all ages. I've never been any good with big groups of people.

Agree with the comment about women in groups sometimes being a bit scary/weird. Still haven't cracked the cliques of our village - and girls' night at the pub with about 20 of them, plus alcohol, is, well, frightening!

No tips to add to all the good advice on this thread; just empathy.

Good luck.

(PS Where do you live? I'm good at crafty things )

those who are in south manchester- have you tried the little monday tots group in ladybarn, at the methodist church? It is a very friendly little group.