I agree with this article on older people

[Orangeblossom78]

Like many of us, i have been trying to emphasise to parents over 70 about staying in through this etc, and have been reading the several threads about others frustrated with there parents refusal to comply and get deliveries etc..

then I was reading this by Janice Turner in the Times today. It really made me think. I agree with what she is saying. We need to leave it up to them really.

How much of it comes down to our own need to feel we are 'keeping them safe' perhaps, so we feel Ok about that?

Here is the article:

The old have the right to decide what’s risky
Condemning the over-70s to long-term lockdown takes no account of an individual’s health, needs or desires

Janice Turner
Friday April 24 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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Maybe it’s the sunshine, but something shifted this week. Social distancing in the supermarket queue has a bored, desultory air. People pass on pavements rather than leap into the road: evening strollers in the park are larkier, the mood less tense. Like a spring plant, the country longs to unfurl.

Yet the price of the majority returning to school, work, to pub reunions with friends, to regaining the million tiny pleasures we never knew we’d miss, will be the continued self-isolation of the old. Details are sketchy. The health secretary Matt Hancock has said it will apply to the over-70s for four months, others suggest the over-60s for 18. On Wednesday, health minister Lord Bethell refused to clarify if a grey lockdown will be advisory...

Link to full article (paywall).

[Post edited by MNHQ]

Oh and I 💯 agree with the article

I think the lockdown should have been for people over a certain age or vulnerable people and if they decide to venture out it is at their own risk rather than expecting everyone to have to change their whole lives to protect one section of society.

Its not just to protect one section of the society, its to protect the economy from being overwhelmed by a sick workforce as much as managing throughput in the NHS

I'm not sure where you get the idea that "older people" are to blame for lockdown decisions. Do you think there is a Crinkly Cabal telling Cummings what to think?

I disagree strongly. It's not just about that one person, it's about everyone. It's best for everyone for them to be isolated. It's not a nice death is it, it's a humiliating, painful and lonely death. And you're pushing the consequences onto everyone that treats you and everyone that loves you. If we isolate them and we go back to work then we can get our economy and schools going again to protect their grandchildrens futures.

That is exactly the sort of patronising and dangerous crap that the article is talking about. Dress it up in a nice facade of "we younger people are the saviours of the earth" why don't you? Who the hell do you think was saving the earth and the economy before you existed and whilst you were growing up?

I am 62 years old. So I may or may not fall in some people here's view of old and past it. I am also physically disabled with arthritis and cannot walk very far at all. I receive PIP at the higher level for both daily needs and mobility. So, in the view of a lot of people on these boards, I am past it, a liability, and also, apparently, stupid.

When I was a child there was still rationing from the Second World War. I grew up in poverty. I was fortunate in that my parents wanted a better life for us, and what little money there was was always directed at supporting positive outcomes in state education.

I happen to hold a doctorate and two Masters degrees. I currently manage a large UK anti-poverty programme that supports people of working age to overcome barriers to employment, and to get them in to work. For much of my working life I worked for UNHCR and a handful of other refugee and aid agencies. I have seen people starving to death. I have worked with communities quite literally murdered by their former neighbours. I have stood and wept over mass graves in Bosnia, Kosovo, Rwanda, Ethiopia... and so many other places. I have helped people escape violence, disease and poverty; and to rebuild their lives and communities.

I have been an active lifelong union member. I have campaigned and marched and fought for the NHS and all our public services when half the people currently clapping for them were denigrating them as useless and demanding reductions in their taxes.

I am therefore more than fucking capable of making my own decisions and making my own risk assessments. I have lived with and through more things than this virus can throw at us. And with and through more things than most people, full stop.

And here's the thing. I don't "owe" anybody anything. I am not a child nor am I stupid. My life is not over. And nobody, especially not some entitled twenty-/thirty- or forty-something, is telling me when it is.

Share token here (as I can't see one yet):

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7c21b012-863c-11ea-b876-ef9d21d57c48?shareToken=babd93983084cff9ba2fe6da4f293aff

Many frail elderly have been cast aside
How can people think that? Look at the enormous lengths the world is going to largely (I know, not exclusively) to protect our elderly. People who are children now will likely be paying their whole lives for this.

*ep let the old and life impaired have all the airline flights for the next 12-18 months, tick off all their bucket lists. Their savings would be well spent on the economy. After all there’s no interest on savings anymore.

Those that can work, can work. Sounds like a plan!*

I hope you were being sarcastic, because otherwise that's a cuntish thing to say*

It’s not remotely cuntish.

A lot of ‘concern’ about older people comes IMO from the sort of people who thoroughly enjoy telling other people what to do, and are making the most of it. Plus it now comes under the disguise of ‘caring’ which makes it that much more acceptable.

Having said that, any oldies who are blatantly flouting the rules on a regular/frequent basis, should IMO voluntarily waive their right to NHS care if they succumb to the virus. They can recover or die at home, and I say this as an oldie myself.

How can people think that?

Because its reality. Discharging covid patients back into care homes without access to testing, without access to PPE is little better than a death sentence for many people in that home.

Elderly needing care who live alone are not getting a lot of that care because of lack of staff and lack of testing/PPE for staff. The death rates in care homes are already showing higher than previous years.

@Moondust101 - well said!

If one wants to look at this quite dispassionately, actually the older you are, the more you have paid into the NHS and therefore you are more deserving of care!

People who are children now will likely be paying their whole lives for this

I was born eight years post war. The final payment on the loan from the cost of the war was made in 2006. My generation paid for an event before our birth for most of our working lives.

Oh and by the way, that NHS you want to protect - the current 70/80/90 somethings paid to create it and a wider state education system, knowing that many of them would never benefit from it.

@Moondust001👏🏻 Well said!

So they all start going out and infect oters which drives the numbers back up-but its ok because theyre enjoying their last years of their life

And here's the thing. I don't "owe" anybody anything. I am not a child nor am I stupid. My life is not over. And nobody, especially not some entitled twenty-/thirty- or forty-something, is telling me when it is

Do you think that people who are more at risk of catching Covid-19 and are more likely to need ICU care should take extra care as we don't want to overwhelm the NHS for everyone - which includes older people?

Excellent article. Janice Turner is a fab journalist.

Absolutely agree with this article. Have always thought the '70 yrs' rule was too blunt an instrument anyway and the impact on mental health & quality of life cannot be underestimated.

I know my 86 yr old mum (who does need to isolate as she has a serious heart condition) is finding the prospect of a long term separation from family very daunting and I'm concerned for her mental well-being. At least for her, there really is no other option and therefore compliance with the guidelines makes absolute sense. For those in otherwise good health, it will be even tougher. I feel very deeply for that generation.

which includes older people?

Well mainly it includes men at the serious end apparently so perhaps we should isolate men.

As an older person myself, I do not think that children should stop nagging their parents and leave it up to them. I've been at home for 5 weeks now. I don't know what a supermarket queue whilst social distancing actually looks like. I've been out twice, to the postbox around the corner. Obviously I've done this to protect myself and my husband, but just as importantly, I've done it for the wider community. I want this to be over as soon as possible, and the only thing I can do to help that process is to do my bit, follow the guidelines and stay home. Just because people get old does not mean that they get more stupid or more sensible. Old people who carry on as if it doesn't mean them when they're told they should stay home, would have been the young people who gather together in parks or invite their friends round for a barbecue.
People who say (and I've had it said to me) "Well I've got to die of something" are not thinking that if they do contract the virus, they are risking the lives of other people. They are stupid and selfish.

Which is it though? The elderly have decades ahead of them so their lives should be protected? Or they're at deaths door anyway so should be allowed to live their lives to the full whichever way they want? If people at higher risk want to take their chances and what will be will be, then good for them. But that isn't how it will actually play out. Higher risk people will die in large numbers and we'll have to go into lockdown again because people will be scandalised that their elderly relatives are dying. So it's not just up to them, frankly.

If we all have a duty to act responsibly so as to not prolong the pandemic or make it more deadly, then so do the elderly, otherwise we really are treating them like children.

@Moondust001 👏🏻 Well said!!!

Having said that, any oldies who are blatantly flouting the rules on a regular/frequent basis, should IMO voluntarily waive their right to NHS care if they succumb to the virus. They can recover or die at home, and I say this as an oldie myself.

Does that go for the younger members of society too? Plenty of them flouting rules too.

Old people who carry on as if it doesn't mean them when they're told they should stay home, would have been the young people who gather together in parks or invite their friends round for a barbecue.

Indeed. In fact the group most likely to breach the guidelines are young men, followed by young people generally. There is no evidence that older people are routinely breaching guidelines more than other age groups, its an ageist assumption.

As much as I agree it’s about the affect on the nhs so if they decide living that life is worth the risk they must also understand the nhs might not help them at all if they catch the virus .

It’s that simple .

And then when that happens everyone will sat the elderly are being discriminated against .

You can’t win

I’m 45 and my husband is 61.

How’s that going to work, if he’s locked down for the next year and a half?

It’ll drive us both nuts. Fuck that!

Anybody have a free link?