I agree with this article on older people

[Orangeblossom78]

Like many of us, i have been trying to emphasise to parents over 70 about staying in through this etc, and have been reading the several threads about others frustrated with there parents refusal to comply and get deliveries etc..

then I was reading this by Janice Turner in the Times today. It really made me think. I agree with what she is saying. We need to leave it up to them really.

How much of it comes down to our own need to feel we are 'keeping them safe' perhaps, so we feel Ok about that?

Here is the article:

The old have the right to decide what’s risky
Condemning the over-70s to long-term lockdown takes no account of an individual’s health, needs or desires

Janice Turner
Friday April 24 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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Maybe it’s the sunshine, but something shifted this week. Social distancing in the supermarket queue has a bored, desultory air. People pass on pavements rather than leap into the road: evening strollers in the park are larkier, the mood less tense. Like a spring plant, the country longs to unfurl.

Yet the price of the majority returning to school, work, to pub reunions with friends, to regaining the million tiny pleasures we never knew we’d miss, will be the continued self-isolation of the old. Details are sketchy. The health secretary Matt Hancock has said it will apply to the over-70s for four months, others suggest the over-60s for 18. On Wednesday, health minister Lord Bethell refused to clarify if a grey lockdown will be advisory...

Link to full article (paywall).

[Post edited by MNHQ]

Absolutely. Over 70s should be free to enjoy life and choose what risks they take just like anyone else. I hate this notion that life is so intrinsically valuable that it must be eked out as long as possible taking no account of its quality, its pleasures. I know my parents would far rather risk having a coffee every morning at the pavement table of their local cafe, having dinner in a local restaurant, going for singalongs at the local pub music night and continue going to their evening classes and run the risk of contracting the virus and yes, maybe dying from it, than staying alive at home living for a phone call from one of us.

Those in care homes,
well yes, I am ignorant apart from a relative who lived to 108 and said how boring her life was.
of course not all those in care homes have the same attitude but i am sure she wasnt alone

I do think though that everyone should now think about under what circumstances tjey would consider DNR and end of life care.
Completely agree. If people are will to take their chances with CV they need to plan for getting it. Also elderly people and they families need to stop being offended and outraged by the suggestion that they will die and therefore end of life care should be planed.

It fails to address the effect that this may have on other people try to access healthcare and the risk of triggering further lockdowns, further economic losses etc. I’m not saying that we should enforce a lockdown on over 70s/any other risk category but we need to protect society at large from the recklessness of the few.

Imagine a new virus. It only kills women who have had children in the last fifteen years.

Everyone else just experiences a mild, flu-like illness.

At first, everyone is happy to do everything they're told, because of course those women are valued members of society, & we need to protect them.

But after a while, people get restless. Life is rubbish. I'm not in danger anyway.

Isn't it true that women with children directly contribute less to the economy that childless women? Or men? And they decided to have children.

Maybe those women should be shielded and everyone else can get back to normal. If they flout the rules, they should be shamed, and told they're selfish.

That's not a society I'd be proud to be part of.

I’m 67 in a couple of months and working, 0.8 FTE. Actually because one of my team is furloughed I’m working more than full time right now. When we go back to work (education) I’ll be going. I’m fit and healthy apart from a mild heart condition (AF) which is well controlled. In fact I’m in better physical shape/health than many of my younger colleagues - I have no qualms about resuming a normal life.

My DM hasn't gone out since the first day it was suggested..My MIL has. I wish DM had as I don't think she will leave the house again shes so isolated. I would never have asked or tried to make her stay in. Shes a grown intelligent adult and has a mind of her own.
I have been pretty dismayed at the way people have been treating their elders which I appreciate is out of fear and love.
The fact that people are now coming round to letting them.be adults is heartening.

Are people only just realising this? Surely its obvious that you need to leave it up to them?

Yes - but then again, their actions could severely impact on other people - more likely to need the NHS if get ill and overwhelming the NHS for other people who may need it.

But they're entitled to use it too!

We have a business that needs to start up again, (with direct contact with people). My kids need to go back to work and I look after their children.

I have been going grocery shopping through all of this.

The measures were put in place so as to not overwhelm the NHS, not necessarily to prevent death. That's worked more or less and now we have the Nightingale hospitals (though eventually Excel will need its building back) let's get a bit back to normal. For everyone,

Trying to keep a particular generation under lockdown will absolutely not work.

Also I suppose you could argue the reverse of this, in that it's younger people who should be shielded as they have more to lose (in terms of years of life). Not that we could afford to do that.
I read an article by a statistician once who said that thrill seeking activity such as parachuting usually done by the young should actually be saved for retirement. A equation was then produced factoring likely number of years of life lost with the risk of death. Basically he was saying the older you are the less you have to lose so taking life risks makes more sense if you're older and that the young should be the most risk averse.

That’s a very strong argument @MilesJuppIsMyBitch

I also REALLY hate this “boomer” label - it’s so disrespectful. It almost seems to de-humanise and separate the older generation

That is the point - label people "boomers", "millennials", "karens", "that sort of woman" and you can dismiss their thoughts and opinions.

Yep let the old and life impaired have all the airline flights for the next 12-18 months, tick off all their bucket lists. Their savings would be well spent on the economy. After all there’s no interest on savings anymore.

Those that can work, can work. Sounds like a plan!

I’ve been telling my mum off for doing a weekly shop when dad is in the very vulnerable, shielded group (if he get cv he’ll very likely die from it 😞)
She said she can’t live her life absolutely locked in. Which is true, I’m getting so worried that I have been almost telling her off, which isn’t fair.

I saw them for the first time in 7 weeks yesterday. I can’t work due to my job and have been out three times since lockdown. We went in their home, kept our distance etc and my dad said “I can’t live the rest of my life I have left locked in and not seeing my family ever again” He nearly died last year, I can’t argue with him.

They asked us to come in (we’d taken shopping) and we honestly were nearly in tears over finally seeing each other in person.
It won’t be happening every week but I needed it and more importantly they needed it.

This is exactly what I’ve said right from the start of this, with 90% of MN shrieking at me in horror. As always, Janice Turner, is talking perfect sense.

Overall I agree with the sentiment of this article. Those in a nursing home mostly have a short expected lifespan anyway- as an individual, why spend 18 months isolated from loved ones in order to not die from covid, and instead die from flu/ pneumonia/ a stroke/ heart disease/ dementia/ old age shortly afterwards.

With less frail elderly in a residential home or their own home, I imagine most can make their own decision, and I would expect many to choose quality of life over quantity. Seeing loved ones, being able to socialise and go out (probably with some social distancing measures), over months of staying at home. What would they be isolating for? In 18 months they will be older and likely more mentally and physically frail from the isolation period. I would rather enjoy the health and vitality I had now.

Of course some will choose isolation, and should be supported in this. In fact it would be easier to properly support a smaller number who want this.

However we do need to think about how individual choice affects wider society. What will happen to those who choose not to isolate and become unwell with covid infection - are they informed that many of them won't benefit from hospital admission and will be cared for at home? And that palliative care may struggle to look after everyone if a big outbreak? Will NHS community and hospital services be overwhelmed? Do we have sufficient end of life medication, syringe drivers, mortuary facilities? Will families accept that their relatives may not benefit from hospital admission? In nursing homes, are sufficient staff willing to work during outbreaks and how do we protect staff and their families? In Spain there were instances of staff fleeing nursing homes and the residents being left abandoned.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch
Actually I disagree. Locking down everybody in the way we are no is completely unsustainable long term. How would we ever pay for it, plus why should everyone else suffer if you can identify the vulnerable group and just protect them. I am a woman who has children under 15, I would absolutely hate everyone else to be made to stay at home just because I shouldn't go out.

I think a lot of older people are incredibly selfish. The whole younger generation is basically being made to suffer via job losses, loss of their savings, their homes etc to protect mostly the older generation.

These are the same older generation that have benefitted hugely from vast increase in housing wealth, free education and good pensions at a reasonable age. Very few of them lived through the war so have only known boom years. Yet once again they are expecting the younger generations to sacrifice so many things now and basically pay for it all in the years to come.

I think the lockdown should have been for people over a certain age or vulnerable people and if they decide to venture out it is at their own risk rather than expecting everyone to have to change their whole lives to protect one section of society.

FWIW I am 65, in good health as far as I know, and am quite sickened by the attitude of some people that it's OK to write people like me off because they are bored with being at home

That is the problem of compressing everyone in age range of 40 odd years into one lump. At 65 you are still classified as working age, for a 90 year old isolated its a very different situation.

DM (nearer to 90) is already at the point that she would rather have a short time with her family/friends than unending imprisonment in isolation.

Turner's point is not just that many older people would rather make this decision but that the group being planned for are not even part of the debate (and of course it disproportionately affects women as you move up the age range).

There are lots of valid points in here and thank you for those thoughts for us 70s. I do feel that we have a responsibilty to stay in and I have left the house on one occasion only in the last month to pick up a prescription. Many frail elderly have been cast aside. It has been acknowledged that until now, patients with Covid, or untested have been discharged to nursing homes, with disastrous results. Care homes cannot barrier nurse and now it is predictably ripping though them. I can see the logic when the fear for hospital beds was the main worry but not really a great plan. There are a lot of older people locally pottering round the shops and being visibly terrified if a mother walking small children is within ten yards. My own daughter is struggling with this. She is also struggling to work from home and care for her children without any help. Marriages are strained. She doesnt need to worry about me, although she still does, and I will not do anything that adds to her stress. Most of my friends are doing the same thing, except one who has allowed her grown up family to "evacuate to hers" from London!. We are called the selfish generation.
There are the seeds of some doubt about locking down although the hounds were baying for blood as we hesitated. I dont think the govt can win whatever we do. I dont blame elderly people who stick 2 fingers up at isolation, but I wont be joining them

Really hate it, can't say it enough, the thought of how much it won affect others is awful.

*ep let the old and life impaired have all the airline flights for the next 12-18 months, tick off all their bucket lists. Their savings would be well spent on the economy. After all there’s no interest on savings anymore.

Those that can work, can work. Sounds like a plan!*

I hope you were being sarcastic, because otherwise that's a cuntish thing to say.

It’s what many of us have said since the start.

Janice Turner is the most fantastic incredible wonderful insightful brilliant columnist in the media.

I just adore her.

My dads 79 very active but is in medication for his ulcerative colitis that makes his immune system week. My mum died 18 months ago all he has is me and my boys he's very much a hands on grandad . We drop his shopping of once a week and he chats from his door and us from my car about 20 feet away. He is so lonely . We FaceTime daily as well. My boys are really missing him and getting a cuddle as an I , so I can't even imagine how my dad feels