I agree with this article on older people

[Orangeblossom78]

Like many of us, i have been trying to emphasise to parents over 70 about staying in through this etc, and have been reading the several threads about others frustrated with there parents refusal to comply and get deliveries etc..

then I was reading this by Janice Turner in the Times today. It really made me think. I agree with what she is saying. We need to leave it up to them really.

How much of it comes down to our own need to feel we are 'keeping them safe' perhaps, so we feel Ok about that?

Here is the article:

The old have the right to decide what’s risky
Condemning the over-70s to long-term lockdown takes no account of an individual’s health, needs or desires

Janice Turner
Friday April 24 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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Maybe it’s the sunshine, but something shifted this week. Social distancing in the supermarket queue has a bored, desultory air. People pass on pavements rather than leap into the road: evening strollers in the park are larkier, the mood less tense. Like a spring plant, the country longs to unfurl.

Yet the price of the majority returning to school, work, to pub reunions with friends, to regaining the million tiny pleasures we never knew we’d miss, will be the continued self-isolation of the old. Details are sketchy. The health secretary Matt Hancock has said it will apply to the over-70s for four months, others suggest the over-60s for 18. On Wednesday, health minister Lord Bethell refused to clarify if a grey lockdown will be advisory...

Link to full article (paywall).

[Post edited by MNHQ]

My dad, like many of his peers, was conscripted into the army when he turned 18. He was sent to fight in the Suez in 1956, he got shot in the arm. He and mum hadn't been out of the house since mid-February, mum somehow got Covid (we have absolutely no idea from where) and died. Dad has had no symptoms whatsoever and is now back to having his daily walks which he hadn't had for so long. As dad put it "when I was young the government ordered me into a situation that they knew might kill me and now people are ordering me into a situation so that I might live....I didn't die then yet your mum has gone now and I'm ok, so I'll make my own mind up on this one". He's socially distancing and being sensible and he's right. It is his call to make.

The difficulties is, if they take their chances and fill up icu, we’ In trouble

So, @Greenpop21, you see older people as 'other'. It's us and them, to you. And the 'them' have no right to treatment that 'we' might need.

Read that again and be horrified at yourself, please. And if you find that difficult, try replacing old with black, or Jewish.

I absolutely agree. I am keeping an eye on an elderly neighbour who is shielding, shop for her etc. She has aged more in the past weeks than she has in the past 5 years. I am seriously concerned about her and I am considering contacting one of her DCs and saying that she would be better off with one of them (very wealthy family no-one will be short of space) or alternatively one of the younger GCs (20s) could be sent to live with her.
This lady has gone from being very active with an incredibly full and sociable life to becoming a hermit with a sedentary life too scared to leave the house. I fear that it will be coronavirus that kills her with a lonely miserable death although she may never get the disease.

Cake “She has aged more in the past weeks than she has in the past 5 years.”

I’m expecting to find my mother an empty shell when I’m eventually allowed to see her. There wasn’t much left after dad died anyway.

I agree with the article.
I am horrified by the callousness of some young people referring to the virus as the 'boomer remover'

DM goes out for a daily walk and has a chat with strangers she meets.
I deliver my dm shopping weekly,
we try and stay safe however if she developed the virus I dont know how I would come to terms with any part I might have played in this.

true.

Limit “ I am horrified by the callousness of some young people referring to the virus as the 'boomer remover'

That worries me less than people thinking the elderly should be locked away, alone, till a vaccine comes.

"Having said that, any oldies who are blatantly flouting the rules on a regular/frequent basis, should IMO voluntarily waive their right to NHS care if they succumb to the virus. They can recover or die at home, and I say this as an oldie myself."

Just 'oldies'? Fine for young people to regularly flout the rules, eh? Just as well, really as Police records show that 70% of the people they deal with for rule flouting are young.

I think we should be very careful about deciding that some sectors of society are more vulnerable to the virus and should be kept shut away to protect resources for the rest of us. Data from NY and the UK suggest that BAME people are suffering disproportionately. We don't yet know the reason for that, but I really, really hope that no one would suggest that if BAME people go out and happen to catch Covid they should 'voluntarily waive their right to NHS care'.

I think it is a matter (like all of us) of some common sense. Yes, go out and have a shout with people you meet (you can't get close enough for a chat). No, don't pop to the shop three times a day for one item each time. No, do not pass objects between people - bring your own drink and stay well apart when mixing of households starts to be allowed.

'do not treat' should be an option for everyone, and is if you have an advance directive. They need witnessing so that's a bit of a challenge at the moment.

'I think we should be very careful about deciding that some sectors of society are more vulnerable to the virus and should be kept shut away to protect resources for the rest of us. Data from NY and the UK suggest that BAME people are suffering disproportionately. We don't yet know the reason for that, but I really, really hope that no one would suggest that if BAME people go out and happen to catch Covid they should 'voluntarily waive their right to NHS care'.'

Well put. People should remove the log from their own eye.

@SusieOwl4
As much as I agree it’s about the affect on the nhs so if they decide living that life is worth the risk they must also understand the nhs might not help them at all if they catch the virus

Does that also follow for the smokers, the obese (due to overeating), the diabetics (who choose to eat the wrong foods) etc etc?

My 82-year old mother was widowed before Christmas and has incurable blood cancer, in remission now but it could come back at any time.

I haven't seen her for six weeks because of lock-down and self-isolating. She is shielded and lives alone.

I'm driving 75 miles to sit in her garden on Monday, bringing her some shopping with me. I am quite prepared to make my case to any policemen stopping me.

I agree with the article.
The ' over 70s' is a thirty-year age band, not one generation - some at 70 are still working, not necessarily in sedentary occupations. I know several very active people in the 70-80 age band. Over 80, mobility may be reducing but quality of life and sociability can still be good - it's more difficult to use the phone and technology, perhaps, but face to face contact is the highlight of life for my mother and her 20-odd contemporaries who meet regularly.

The 60-65s are still working, may be parents of teenagers (age-gap relationships, anyone?) and caring for their own elderly parents. This is the 'sandwich' generation, and they have full mental capacity.

Straw man - We are saving so much A&E time by closing all licensed premises and keeping non-essential cars off the road. Pollution has droppped to the extent that general health is improving. Stopping UK leisure travel has protected many areas. Let's keep all that going for 24 months, no exceptions.
Happy to have someone else make that decision, about a much smaller part of your life?

I also REALLY hate this “boomer” label - it’s so disrespectful. It almost seems to de-humanise and separate the older generation

^^I agree wholeheartedly with this!

"Boomer" has become a horrible derogatory, abusive term nowadays, usually said with a sneer on the lips and a tone that smacks of hatred of people based only on their date of birth and no other factors.
What can anyone do to change the date when they were born? Nothing! Use of the term should be deemed hate speech in the same way that racist remarks are.

I am getting sick to death of the media.

This I agree with.

My dm(86) has said from the start, 'I want no young person risking their lives to save mine.' She has made it plain. She was a nurse all her life and knows what she is talking about. I (61) feel just the same.

For decades I have been on the organ donor register. I wish that there was a 'let me go with minimal fuss' register.

I don't want heroes, or martyrs. I want a healthy younger generation. It sickens me to see the NHS list of staff who have lost their lives to save people 2 generations older than themselves. It's not fair.

I'm driving 75 miles to sit in her garden on Monday, bringing her some shopping with me. I am quite prepared to make my case to any policemen stopping me.

Good for you

Have always thought the '70 yrs' rule was too blunt an instrument anyway and the impact on mental health & quality of life cannot be underestimated.

I agree. I read something earlier in the week suggesting over 60s and possibly even over 50s should be told to isolate. DH, who is 65, was not impressed!

I would assume, given the high number of deaths attributable to the corona virus in care homes, that the elderly who have symptoms are not being taken into hospital anyway if there is another way for them to be made comfortable. Given the long term impacts on someone's health of suffering so badly with the virus that they need ventilation I think the NHS would be unlikely to prioritise someone for this treatment who would be unlikely to have a long term benefit. It's like having a DNAR for someone who is frail and the impacts of the CPR would mean that time gained would be in pain with no quality.

This is as much about looking at the long term quality of life for the elderly person as it is about limited resources. My mum is in her late 80's with dementia. She lives in a care home where she is content, the staff are kind and she has activities to occupy her, she still has quality of life. If she had to suffer a procedure which left her lying in a bed in pain, or doped up to cope with the pain, to prolong her life for a few months then to me I would rather she be made comfortable and to let her go.

But, in discussing elderly, there is a big difference between a person in their 80's who is frail and has dementia, than someone in their early 70's who is living a full life and probably as fit and healthy as I am.

Nanny0gg

Although I get that it’s very difficult for those who are more vulnerable to the disease to social distance - especially for months on end, I think we need to remember that many of those of working age and children are making significant sacrifices for them. My 70 year old parents aren’t losing income, jobs or homes because of this. My DH is furloughed and my job is looking at risk (civil service - my current team is no longer a funding priority), worst case our home is at risk and this could have a significant impact on our future. Children are losing time at school, missing exams etc. IMO it’s unreasonable to expect certain sections of society to lose so much, but not expect those who we are trying to protect to also make sacrifices. When this is over, for many of the over 70s and those with health conditions etc, life will more or less return to normal, for those of us at working age we will be facing job losses, financial losses and paying this back through taxes for years on end.

I realise that this doesn’t apply neatly to everyone - some over 70s work, many in other vulnerable categories work so will be double impacted. And I know that people who aren’t considered ‘vulnerable’ can also suffer seriously from the virus. But essentially we can’t make all these sacrifices for those we are trying to protect to not also make sacrifices.

I disagree Swiftier. The elderly are being asked to give up their freedom and, at their age, many of them will not get a chance to do the things they are missing out on as time is not in their side.

But essentially we can’t make all these sacrifices for those we are trying to protect to not also make sacrifices.

Sorry. Not prepared to lose our livelihood for something we're not asking for.
Also the fact we give substantial practical aid to our DC so they can work.

I do see your point Swiftier, especially as my own financial situation is now very precarious. We rely on our savings to help us through the peaks and troughs of my career (a creative one, so volatile). We have saved for years, putting money away in good years to tide us over, but our ISAs and pension funds have been really smashed by this. We are losing our rainy-day money very quickly.

So hard to balance everyone's sometimes incompatible needs.