I agree with this article on older people

[Orangeblossom78]

Like many of us, i have been trying to emphasise to parents over 70 about staying in through this etc, and have been reading the several threads about others frustrated with there parents refusal to comply and get deliveries etc..

then I was reading this by Janice Turner in the Times today. It really made me think. I agree with what she is saying. We need to leave it up to them really.

How much of it comes down to our own need to feel we are 'keeping them safe' perhaps, so we feel Ok about that?

Here is the article:

The old have the right to decide what’s risky
Condemning the over-70s to long-term lockdown takes no account of an individual’s health, needs or desires

Janice Turner
Friday April 24 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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Maybe it’s the sunshine, but something shifted this week. Social distancing in the supermarket queue has a bored, desultory air. People pass on pavements rather than leap into the road: evening strollers in the park are larkier, the mood less tense. Like a spring plant, the country longs to unfurl.

Yet the price of the majority returning to school, work, to pub reunions with friends, to regaining the million tiny pleasures we never knew we’d miss, will be the continued self-isolation of the old. Details are sketchy. The health secretary Matt Hancock has said it will apply to the over-70s for four months, others suggest the over-60s for 18. On Wednesday, health minister Lord Bethell refused to clarify if a grey lockdown will be advisory...

Link to full article (paywall).

[Post edited by MNHQ]

@saraclara

And I asked her if she wanted to catch the virus after her saying this -
"lived a long active life and died after a short illness, that's me"

But you just carry on accusing strangers of 'scolding' pensioners and treating them like children over conversations you weren't even there for, didn't hear and know none of the participants.

But we, me and my husband, are both over 70, and like many others we are kinship carers (with a Special Guardianship Order -SGO) for our granddaughter. Her parents cannot look after her, and the courts awarded us the SGO. There are 1000s of grandparents and other, often elderly carers in our postition. What do you suggest we do?

My mum is s 82 and an adult.She chooses to isolate because she quite enjoys her own company and although mentally great had been much less mobile of late .She has set up U3A sessions on zoom,we have virtual dinner parties,tea parties Etc and she chats to family everyday.Like us she misses the physical hugs but is in no rush to die just yet.
Being pragmatic she updated her will,simplified some financial affairs and sorted all her paperwork out.
But if she decided to do otherwise all I could do is keep my fingers crossed and whizz up to see her.

Not because it’s their “fault” but simply because if medical resources run short

Problem is not just lack of resources but that without any way to treat the infection, equipment like a ventilator can only buy time, it can't cure. If there is little chance of recovery, there is little point in putting a patient on a ventilator.

equipment like a ventilator can only buy time, it can't cure. If there is little chance of recovery, there is little point in putting a patient on a ventilator according to various testimonies by doctors over the weeks, the ventilator helps support the patient while their immune system fights the virus, possibly together with drugs which are being tried. Some recover some don't. There are lots of testimonies from patients who have recovered after being on a ventilator online

There are but not many of them are old. Ventilators are too invasive and distressing for old people.

I don't agree with the article.

I'm dealing with my own mother who is under 70 so not old and she understands the virus and she's taking it seriously.

I've seen some of her habits though. She won't cover her mouth when she's coughing and she coughs into the open, not a problem on her. She wears gloves to the supermarket and she comes in from public without washing her hands.

Thanks he's doing her bit and she's limiting going out and avoiding crowds. She gets her daily exercise/walk and limits public shops. It's good.

How many older people in communities have appalling habits? In my own community I see some appalling personal hygiene from the older generation and other disgusting habits. One man who uses the bus, regularly hasn't used a tap or a washing machine in years. Another man goes around with his hand down the back of his pants. He's always picking his arse. Other appalling habits seen on the buses, mainly from the older generation like coughing and spluttering about. Other people who are too drunk too even know where they are, never mind about who they are.

(I haven't been on a bus since Xmas and I probably won't use a bus again until a vaccine comes in).

If unshielding happens and these people go out into the general population, the virus will spread faster.

We are all vulnerable to this virus. We all need to play our part in slowing down this virus. I would be worried. If the older people are allowed to unshield themselves, will they go around and think its safe to do so and perhaps become lax with guidelines of washing hands and social distancing and keeping apart.

People of all ages can have bad habits, that doesn't just apply to the older groups though- different from the point the article was making really. That is more about behaviour rather than age and vulnerability

I thought MN had reached peak ageism but I can see I was wrong. You’ve just hit new heights @SMJYellow.

@Alsohuman

Yep. There's always someone/something new coming along...

I'd love to know where @SMJYellow elderly community is. Sounds delightful.

Rural Irish town/village
I do see some appealing things and I'm more hyper aware now of everything. It's not every old person but there is a lot who goes around without any care or consideration for others.

One of the men who lives outside of the town and who gets the bus is a despicable human being hygiene wise. Me and mam went to town on the bus and he came on and sat down in a seat near us. When he did that, I got up and went to the back of the bus away from him. The smell from him would sicken anyone. I asked my mam does she want to come with me but she was too polite afraid offending him or something. When we got to our destination, my poor mother was sick. Just from the smell alone. I swear to god, he hasn't used a tap in over 20 years. If these people are unleashed back into the public, we're all doomed.

Having poor hygiene has nothing to do with age

I'm struggling to believe people are really this dim.

MN on the over 60s when it comes to state pension "they are lucky to get it so YOUNG I wont be getting it till a lot later in life"

MN on the over 60s and Covid "they are OLD and should stay in so others have a chance

They'll have a tough job arguing for a further rise of the pension age after all this!

Doesn't choice work both ways. None of the elderly I know resent being protected btw but anyone of any age who does isn't only risking their own life. What about the people they might infect, or the doctors and nurses who will be affected?

Dreadful attitude towards the disabled. Are their lives not worth living? The ones who can never go out.

Substitute ‘older’ for ‘Jewish’ or ‘black’, SMJYellow.

Your posts are disgusting.

borntobequiet
'I’m fit and healthy apart from a mild heart condition (AF) which is well controlled. In fact I’m in better physical shape/health than many of my younger colleagues '

It may seem like that to you but probably not true. The disease process is different in older people which makes them more susceptible to a more severe reaction to the virus than a much younger person of average health.

@Moondust001 Hear Hear! I haven't actually RTFT yet but:

I'm 60 and there's no way anyone's going to lock me down, I've worked since I was 12 and I'm going to take my NHS pension for which I've grafted very hard indeed and I shall bloody well do all the things I've been planning to do with the time I've got left.

Similarly my 86 year old DF isn't going to stop going out for a walk in the fresh air and I'd defend his right to do that.

The government has been very clever to put this all on us. If we don’t stay in we are killing people. But lockdown was meant to be about flattening the curve not a cure all. And in any event the issue is why the government has not contained and controlled the crisis with better testing and tracing and Ppe and basic planning like other countries have. At some point restrictions have to be eased. When that happens there needs to be clarity on liability and a sensible middle ground otherwise people will sue businesses shops etc for catching it. So
If those at risk care willing to take the risk and not sue then let them. I am astounded at how we have let all our basic freedoms and rights be taken away indefinitely. It is not just about staying in it is about missing education and health appointments and
Losing livelihoods and suffering mental distress etc etc.

Well I’m not quite 70 , but not that far away, and I agree with the article.
If I’m meant to go now, then I’m not going to go cowering in my bunker but I’m going with the sun on my face, living life and not just trudging my way through it.
I’ve lived my life through all of this, not as fully as I’ve liked but under the circumstances, I’ve stayed in for 4 or 5 days completely.
Last weekend as I didn’t feel too good and a couple of days when it was warm and we sat in the garden..and that’s been it.

Born to be quiet..my 67 year old dh has AF, but he’s amazing . Really healthy
It’s good to know someone else is living a good life with it.

You could make these rules for a long life across the board:-

No obese people allowed in takeaways or restaurants.
No alcoholics or people who drink more than x a day allowed in pubs.
No addicted gamblers in betting shops.
No one with impaired vision to cross roads unaided.
Noone with infectious colds in theatres/ offices.
Etc

I can see it isn't exactly the same but it is limiting freedoms. How much extra in tax do we pay for health care for the overweight, or heavy drinnker, or mountain biker when they fall off.

As long as people are informed. And as long as their behaviour won't overload the emergency care beds for everyone else we need to let people get on with it.
My DH is over 70 but he is fat and doesn't exercise enough. If we really wanted to survive Covid19 we would all be dieting and exercising as much as possible. Not many of any age are.

sossunjunmash

"according to various testimonies by doctors over the weeks, the ventilator helps support the patient while their immune system fights the virus"

Yes - that is my point. A ventilator supports a patient's lungs while their immune system fights the virus. However intubation is a very invasive procedure that will not in itself cure the virus.

Therefore people with very weak immunes systems are not just being shielded because of a lack of resources, but because, without a cure, a ventilator is of limited use.

They'll have a tough job arguing for a further rise of the pension age after all this!

That crossed my mind too. But here is another thought.
The pension age has gone up because life expectancy has gone up. Life expectancy has gone up because of healthcare treatment for various conditions.
It will be interesting to see what Covid19 does to overall life expectancy, if it lowers it. It could be an argument to lower the pension age again.

I am in better shape/health than some (actually many) of my younger colleagues...statement of fact. I know the disease affects older people in a different way, but that’s not what I was talking about.
(GP says my bio age is at least 15 years younger than my chronological age.)
Dowser my regards to your Dad!

Hasn't autonomy been taken away from all of us?
Not taken from just from the oldies, but taken from all of us.

All the BMJ and NHS hype about patient autonomy went out window.