I agree with this article on older people

[Orangeblossom78]

Like many of us, i have been trying to emphasise to parents over 70 about staying in through this etc, and have been reading the several threads about others frustrated with there parents refusal to comply and get deliveries etc..

then I was reading this by Janice Turner in the Times today. It really made me think. I agree with what she is saying. We need to leave it up to them really.

How much of it comes down to our own need to feel we are 'keeping them safe' perhaps, so we feel Ok about that?

Here is the article:

The old have the right to decide what’s risky
Condemning the over-70s to long-term lockdown takes no account of an individual’s health, needs or desires

Janice Turner
Friday April 24 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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Maybe it’s the sunshine, but something shifted this week. Social distancing in the supermarket queue has a bored, desultory air. People pass on pavements rather than leap into the road: evening strollers in the park are larkier, the mood less tense. Like a spring plant, the country longs to unfurl.

Yet the price of the majority returning to school, work, to pub reunions with friends, to regaining the million tiny pleasures we never knew we’d miss, will be the continued self-isolation of the old. Details are sketchy. The health secretary Matt Hancock has said it will apply to the over-70s for four months, others suggest the over-60s for 18. On Wednesday, health minister Lord Bethell refused to clarify if a grey lockdown will be advisory...

Link to full article (paywall).

[Post edited by MNHQ]

OP, do you have a share token for the article?

I’d love to send it to my (widowed, very active and sociable) DM.

Moreover, will care homes lockdown until a vaccine is found? Clearly, while battling a bushfire of cases they must stay shut. But they house the oldest and most vulnerable who could die of other causes at any time. I fear I’ll never see my 96-year-old mother again, although fortunately she has lost all sense of time. But more alert residents feel abandoned and pine for family. Many are so lonely they’d rather risk death

Thing is, if say, I were to visit my Mum and infect her, she might infect other residents who have a different idea about risk and also the the staff who, statistically, are older and often BAME.

This is a social and not an individual problem.

I'm sure elderly people are bored, lonely etc. But many of the younger generation are suffering massive financial hardship which the elderly are largely protected from (as pension payments haven't changed).

If we expect younger people to stay inside despite this, I can't feel much sympathy for older people who flout the lockdown.

I'm in favour of lifting the lockdown btw. But while it's in place, I don't see why older people should get a special pass.

I also REALLY hate this “boomer” label - it’s so disrespectful. It almost seems to de-humanise and separate the older generation.

I also hate the ‘Snowflake’ label too for the same reason.

It's selfish. Even if they don't want to live for themselves, it's selfish to put others at risk. So many dedicated frontline healthcare workers have died. Why is an elderly person's right to go an buy a newspaper worth more than someone else''s life?

i agree with boulshared. I do believe personal choices for vulnerable people are important, in relation to additional shielding, but in relation to trying to stop exponential spread the situation remains the same for old people as well as young people.
Also, this is not a nice way to die, it sounds horrendous, so I do think our job is to make sure our older loved ones know the facts.

It isn't just the old who are at risk. For example, your average middle aged parent, high blood pressure, slightly overweight, also at risk. with children who are still children who would be terribly affected by the loss of a parent. That is just one example. It isn't a matter of "waiting for a vaccine" or dictating to vulnerable people beyond the rules applying to anyone else, but it is a matter of taking precautions for everyone's benefit and making sure everyone is properly informed.

My mum is over seventy, my dad in his mid sixties. Where they live is highly isolated anyway, and my mum has quite a detailed exit plan if she were to ever end up even close to a care home.

She's very fit - not just slim, but muscular, and my dad's the same.

She wants to see me more than she wants to be protected. I am more than happy to remain completely homebound for two weeks before that to enable that.

The article link is here- I'm on a free trial so unsure about the share thing, but think they give you access to 3 articles free a week anyway.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-old-have-the-right-to-decide-whats-risky-67c2j72st

Yes - but then again, their actions could severely impact on other people - more likely to need the NHS if get ill and overwhelming the NHS for other people who may need it.

Being one of the boomer generation I am now 68 but have diabetes which makes me more vulnerable my life would not be worth living if I didn’t have the prospect of seeing my dgs - nearly three- in person and being able to give him a cuddle for the next year to eighteen months. I am one of the many grandparents who normally provide child care so I am used to him being here two days a week.

I would rather take my chances with the virus which being in the SW is rather low at the moment. I know that I am nearer my death than my birth but staying in for many more months would be like a living death.

Is any other illness nicer? I mean dementia, stroke, heart attack or cancer don't sound so either to be honest. Or breaking a hip, a common way for frail older people to go.

i wonder how much is about death and how we think of it. I know there is palliative care for all end of life conditions to help keep people comfortable. Such as opiates for breathlessness and for pain.

@Ponoka7 - where did you get this info that any vaccine would not make the over 65s immune?

FWIW I am 65, in good health as far as I know, and am quite sickened by the attitude of some people that it's OK to write people like me off because they are bored with being at home, etc. I haven't been out for over 6 weeks now apart from a daily walk and one visit to a shop, and will stay put for as long as it takes to make sure I can go out without worry. Hell, I haven't even got my pension yet since I am a WASPI woman!

Don't write us off - I would do anything not to get this virus.

Sorry that was in response to

"Also, this is not a nice way to die, it sounds horrendous, so I do think our job is to make sure our older loved ones know the facts."

"It isn't just the old who are at risk. For example, your average middle aged parent, high blood pressure, slightly overweight, also at risk."

Yes that was mentioned in the article too

My DM was most upset initially about the lockdown.
No way would she agree with 18 months of lockdown, it is ludicrous.
at the age of 84 she can make her own decisions.
Of course she does not want her life to be over.
We chatted about those in care homes. What sort of life are they having anyway?

My Nan just fought bowel cancer and is in remission. She’s in her mid seventies and hasn’t left the house for two months, I don’t blame her and would do the same in her position. Yes she misses her family, friends and church but her thinking is she fought the bastard that is cancer, she isn’t going to let a virus take her life.

My parents were very slow to lock down and I did all I could to encourage them, but I recognised and admitted even then that my reasons were selfish... that I don’t want to lose them.

So difficult. If you’re 80 years old, then 18 months will be a huge chunk out of what remains of your life. People have to weigh the benefits against the costs. It might be the only time you have left.

I disagree strongly. It's not just about that one person, it's about everyone. It's best for everyone for them to be isolated. It's not a nice death is it, it's a humiliating, painful and lonely death. And you're pushing the consequences onto everyone that treats you and everyone that loves you. If we isolate them and we go back to work then we can get our economy and schools going again to protect their grandchildrens futures.

We chatted about those in care homes. What sort of life are they having anyway?

Many people in care homes still value their life Erica. I worked in one where the residents were loved and cared for, tasty delicious food cooked from scratch every day, interesting activities organised and so on.

Their lives were restricted by mobility and health issues in many cases but still worthwhile. It's not for us to judge.

I completely agree with this article but it is a difficult balance. My parents are in their 70's and mum is enjoying lockdown as she is an introvert. Normally they have lots of visitors... mum is enjoying the fact that they don't. Dad is going out for walks and had a couple of allotments in other family members gardens which he has been doing. If they are told they need to isolate another 12 months, there is no way my dad world do that. He would quite literally prefer to die. I think probably most difficult discussion is about those in care homes. Most residents in nursing homes will be in their last year or so. For them to have to spend that time with no family contact to protect them from dying is ridiculous. I think vulnerable staff need protecting but I think the elderly population need quality of life not longer life and I guarantee you that all but a tiny handful of elderly people would agree with me on that.

Can I just point out to a poster above - nurses are not dying 'to protect the elderly'.

They are dying because they are caring for people with an infectious disease without adequate PPE.

Your statement means to imply that nurses are some kind of human shield. No.

They have been let down by our government, not by some seventy-eighty year olds who (to paraphrase a poster from another thread) don't want to stay in the fucking cupboard for who knows how long.

Good article. I am not that age yet but given that I can't retire until I am 67, I do think younger people are way too quick to think that most over 60s are doddery old farts with no quality of life. I feel more as though life of the fun kind has barely started as its all been work and bringing up children really so far not that that hasn't had fun moments. I can totally understand people of 79 plus thinking that they will take their chances a bit.

100 pc agree. For some elderly people this might be one of just a few remaining summers. Why force them to spend it inside? Utter madness.

We cannot isolate middle aged overweight people, the best we can do is have a operational NHS. that is why we are shielding.

Loutypips Sorry your mum is terminally ill. Honestly I'd listen to her and take the chance. Make memories, play board games, take photos. She could be gone, very ill before they find a vaccine so why waste precious time waiting on it?

We chatted about those in care homes. What sort of life are they having anyway?

This is a really ignorant statement.

At the CH where my Mum is there are many residents who live happy lives to the best of their abilities.