In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

Only half my friends are married, I'm A in the socio economic class thing ... some divorced, some never married. Just depends on your friends I supposed. None of my divorced friends plan to ever marry again and live with partners

How can anyone make such sweeping generalisations about huge groups of people? There is a distinct whiff of sneering on this thread and it’s not towards the upper or working classes...

Have we had the bingo comments of boring suburbs or bourgeois yet?

As if having more or less money gives you an exciting personality.

Dunno I expect it cuts across all spectrums of class and it's much more of a personal thing. I never wanted to get married definitely definitely didn't want a ridiculous 'wedding' fuck the patriarchy... However I did get married in the end partly because DH wanted it and partly because there is no way in hell I would ever have taken maternity/gone part time without the legal protections marriage provided. No bloody way would I be selling my career prospects down the shitter without some legal right to recompense should everything go tits up.

It would be really odd to judge someone morally for not being married unless you were a time traveller from the last century. As long as you clear about your legal and tax position should you die or split up that’s all that matters.

I think some of it is that the middle classes are far more likely to adhere to tradition and have a solid family background of stable marriages. Also middle classes are more likely to plan for the long term, e.g work and put money to one side, by a house, be with a partner some time then marry, whereas in the working class there is a greater tendency to have children sooner after meeting a person, more of a tendency to leave relationships and start new ones so marriage is less likely to work.

If you are not religious, one of the biggest reason to get married is to protect your house etc from the taxman if one of you dies. Property ownership almost defines the middle class so i guess that figures.

I have a will- it's been updated over the years according to my circumstances, and it's pretty specific, but you are right lyra DP should have one and I know he doesn't. I have probably assumed if I died he would then make one, but I think I need him to do it while I stand over him with a cattle prod otherwise he might not get around to it. Thank You!

We are MC. Husband earns more than me but i have a good salary myself. We didn't get married for financial reasons. I got married to have my husband's name and have the commitment of being legally bound together forever.

I'm not much of a feminist though, I do confess. I'm an independent woman who had 50/50 house ownership, my own career etc. But I actually like having my husband's name and I like the traditions if marriage few I'm a strong atheist so there is no religious connection.

I am MC in South East.

The vast majority of my friends with children are married. The only friends I have who are not married but do have DC are very independently wealthy and do not want to marry and have to share family wealth. I am not making any value judgement on this, it's just their reasons.

I married before having DC and I have to say that even if I were a young woman now, there is NO Fucking WAY I would have DC with a man I was not married to unless I had my own income that was not at all affected by having children. It leaves you so exposed legally/financially when it's usually women who are SAHP/work PT/take years out of their careers to raise children.

I don't know but I think I'm unusual in my friendship circle for not wanting to marry or have kids. I guess I am what is considered lower MC. My parents are old hippies and think it's weird that so many of my friends are married I don't think it's weird but it's not for me.

I should add me and DP have been together 10 years.

I’m early 40s, working class, grew up on a council estate, work in a low paid job.

All of my close friends are married and my siblings and cousins are either married or never been in serious relationships so haven’t got there yet.

My work colleagues are from various backgrounds and all are married bar one.

Yy ifnotnow your DP absolutely must write a will. It's vitally important for anyone who wouldn't like what the intestacy rules would do in their case. There are still firms operating remotely.

@Celerysam

I don’t agree. My parents are working class, as are all their friends. They’ve all been married for decades (44 years for my parents; married for 5 years before first child was born). They are all homeowners and always saved what they could. This idea that the working class are somehow morally inferior and feckless is deeply unpleasant and offensive.

I know a few. All middle class (mostly academics). I used to know more but some got married later for inheritance tax reasons. Now some are going the civil partnership route instead. I'd have been perfectly happy not to get married, but we decided a wedding would be fun. And would probably have yielded to the tax argument eventually anyway.

But statistically I think you are right.

I can't think of any non-middle class unmarried parents that I know, but I'm afraid my circles are almost entirely middle class.

This is for the US. I think it is similar in the UK but I am too lazy to look.

ifstudies.org/blog/the-marriage-divide-how-and-why-working-class-families-are-more-fragile-today

I have a will- it's been updated over the years according to my circumstances, and it's pretty specific, but you are right lyra DP should have one and I know he doesn't. I have probably assumed if I died he would then make one, but I think I need him to do it while I stand over him with a cattle prod otherwise he might not get around to it. Thank You!

He really should!

Also it's worth making sure he knows that if anything ever happens to you and then he remarries any will he's made is invalid (unless it's specfically written in contemplation of marriage). That catches a lot of people out I think

Most people I know (including me) got married after one or two kids

Hi OP, I'm in the Civil Service too, (on about 50k which I think you think is relevant). DP and I, together 30 years, are not married. The majority of our social groups are not married, about a 60/40 split. All the long term relationships in our friendship group are not married. We've known one another since school /uni so plenty of time to see how things pan out.

Think its maybe a middle-middle class thing. We work now but both come from upper middle backgrounds (we are both the first generation needing to work for a living) and don't think marriage is as much of a big deal in our social groups.

I'll probably be accused of being a snob but, like you, I'm just also making an observation.

I think it also because it a very middle class thing to be seen to be doing the right thing. As pp mentioned, independently wealthy (we're not but know people who are) seem less likely to feel the need to be 'protected', 'proper', 'legal' etc. Just doesn't matter as much and nothing to prove.

I read somewhere and can't remember source but the chances of parents being married when child is 5 is strongly related to mothers annual income
mother on average about 28K about 50/50 married
mother on minimum wage about 75-80% not married
mother pays higher rate tax ie 50K+ over 80% married

@dayslikethese1 "old hippy" parents here too, and similarly zero encouragement to marry. My mum always said that the only reason she married my dad was because their university wouldn't let them live together if unmarried (they're still together over 50 years later ). When DB married SIL in a big traditional Catholic affair they were most perplexed! They like my partner though and are very happy we're expecting a baby

I think the 'security' aspect is more prevalent amongst MC marriages. If you haven't got a pot to piss in there isn't much to lose, and if you are both independently secure then there might not be as much of a driving factor to marriage.
Security and image - being seen to be doing the 'right' thing is the impression I get from people in my circle. I'm a single mum but in a professional job and own my house, no real incentive for me to marry at all.

Like most people I live in a series of bubbles/echo chambers that limit my ability to make accurate sweeping statements about large swathes of the population.

I suppose my experience suggests that there's certainly a correlation between money & marriage, albeit with plenty of exceptions either way.