In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

@firstmentat

I hear you! It’s bizarre isn’t it? I’ve had the incredulous faces too, when these kind of people realise I can speak (fluent) French. I’ve lived in a Francophone country for 10 years and am married to a Frenchman so it’s hardly a revelation, but they can’t get their tiny minds around someone with a regional accent being bilingual. Obviously I’m getting ‘above my station’!

Hmm, not really.

My circle is vair middle class.

Most people are married, but the ones who aren’t are among the most educated and well off among my peer group.

There’s a degree of confidence among them that they don’t need stuff like marriage. I believe that most of them have made legal provision, though it’s not something we talk about much. I hope they have.

@FloconDeNeige Do you have your regional accent when you speak French? I was on a train in France a while back and I overheard a man speaking fluent French with a strong Mancunian accent. I don't know why but it seemed more remarkable to me than someone speaking French with, say, a more neutral British accent or an American accent. Maybe it's just strange to be able to identify so clearly what city someone is from by their accent when they are speaking a completely different language.

But then I also know a Glaswegian who speaks fluent French and his accent is definitely a lot more neutral in French than it is in English.

Literally the only people rolling eyes at my single and unmarried mother status are middle class Brits
I was a single mum for a number of years when my kids were little. Children I had when unmarried. I never felt judge once by anyone from any class.

I worked FT in a managerial role. My experience is the opposite with people giving me a lot of praise for raising my kids well on my own working FT.

I’m an unmarried mother in a professional job so I suppose mc. What I find so interesting is on mn there is the whole “marry for protection” brigade which is really “marry a rich man” (there’s no protection marrying someone poorer at all). I have never thought that way and I’m in my 40s. It’s sad that feminism has passed so many women by.

I broke up from my ex and got to keep most of my assets because we were not married. Now I’m in a better position to take care of my dds. So not getting married protected me.

Iht is not a consideration for the vast majority of people but there are a small minority for whom it may be relevant. Much more relevant for most is the risk of losing your assets in a divorce.

I plan to pass a lot of assets down during my lifetime to dds. Ultimately though, if they have to pay iht, they will be in the fortunate position of having a huge inheritance.

Apparently not, no. DH has been around my friends and family enough to easily recognise a Birmingham accent in English and he says he can’t hear it in my spoken French.

To be honest, it’s not really very strong in English any more, but it comes out more when I go home or have had a few drinks!

I know lots of unmarried middle class couples, and even more who were unmarried with children for a while and then realised how dangerous that was for the woman so then got married - quite a few on the quiet.
Marriage doesn't have to mean an expensive wedding - and provides real securities.

Its never been an idea that interested me. I have many friends who enjoy the single life,unencumbered by spouse/kids..some of whom live overseas with work enjoying the spoils of expat life and others who just (like myself) hate the idea of being permanently tied to any one person.The idea is incredibly old-fashioned.

@20wedding19, wills are hardly ever successfully challenged. That's why it's big news when somebody succeeds in a case where there's a lot of money at stake. It's so expensive to go to court over this that most people can't or wisely prefer either to sort it out with mediation or just to let it go.

I married my DH cos hes a foreigner and it was easier to get him into the UK on a spouse Visa.... true love that!! We had a tiny wedding with only our witnesses and the only cost were paying for the hall and the registrar and buying DH a suit as he didnt have one. We spent less than £100 even after we paid our witnesses travel and bought the 4 of us food after.

I honestly dont know that I've ever asked a lot of my friends if they are married. I assume a few are as I know they share a last name with their child and live with another adult, a few dont share a last name with their child and live with a partner, of these I assume a few are married and a few arent. I remember being told it's not financially a good idea to have children and not be married but I dont know how true this is and I definitely wouldn't tell my unmarried friends to get married unless they wanted to.

Also once you remove factors such as poverty and relationship breakdown from the stats, children of single mothers don’t do any worse than children of married couples (actually some studies show them doing better especially for single mothers by choice).

I don’t think there are any benefits for me of getting married at the moment. Happy to be the captain of my own ship

My experience is the opposite with people giving me a lot of praise for raising my kids well on my own working FT.
Well, everyone has their own experiences. I have a lot of praise along the lines "isn't it sooooo amaaaazing that you are doing it all on your own and in a professional role to boot, I would have never risked it without my uber-fantastic DH and two sets of retired grandparents close by".

I know quite a few couples who married for visa reasons (i.e one half of the couple was moving abroad for work reasons, not immigration). These are more likely to be 'middle class'.

My friends are partners in their own accountancy firm of around 30 employees. They’ve been together over 25 years with 2 boys in their early twenties. They’ve never married, unlikely to now! As middle class as they come.

Another friend is a trained barrister, now working as HR manager in a large independent school. She has 2 boys late teens with her partner of 20 years. Also pretty middle class.

Not everyone believes in the institution of marriage. Both women are high achieving earners in their own right, though, not SAHMs who have sacrificed their careers to look after their children while their OH’s career takes off. In that situation, getting married is pretty much essential.

Pepperthecat very interesting post about fertility . It's one that has always mystified me but you hypotheses makes complete sense.

Some one with a life plan - most likely career/climbing corporate ladder would almost certainly not let an accidental pregnancy stop their plan. So it may have little to do with education around correct use of contraception (although that would also be a factor) but much more to do with ambition.

MillicentMartha, unless your accountant friends are absolutely determined to pay the maximum inheritance tax when the time comes, or so laden with debt that they don't expect to leave any money, I'd be very surprised indeed if they didn't marry or enter into a civil partnership on the quiet. The first spouse to die can leave everything to the other spouse with no IHT payable. On the death of the second spouse the tax-free allowance of both spouses will be applied to the estate if it wasn't needed on the first spouse's death and that will usually wipe out the IHT liability altogether.

I just think that, at least where I'm from, it's not considered the end of the world if a (non Asian because that's a bit different) girl gets pregnant by her boyfriend as long as she has left school and has a job or means of support. It's just kind of what happens.
I have old friends who have a child by a boyfriend aged about 20, then maybe another couple of children later by a long term partner. As I said, I don't know any women at all who don't work. I have DC from a previous relationship and if I married dp and then died his future wife and her children could get what's mine and is meant for my DC, so it's a big risk afaiak.I don't think DP would fuck over my DC but if he died everything would go to his new wife I think?
Anyway, life can get complicated. I would advise any daughter of mine to share parental leave and never quit work, it at least keep the opportunity to work open

I do think it’s sad that so many people are still judging single mothers and instead of calling them out, a lot of women are going along with it. Cmon sisters, let’s judge people who have misogynistic views and call them out.

I am WC and in well paid job. 2 dc

I've never wanted to get married. Or my 4 siblings only one married then divorced. Me is in new relationship but I doubt he will marry.

I know lots of unmarried couples and single parents. Now you mention it most of those I know who are married are MC. IVe never thought of it before.

I know a few people who got married after having a child! They're all professional people, (as in MC, house, proper job kinda people) come to think of it. Seemed to be more of a practical issue - as in , we would have anyway, but postponed it after the baby was here. Nothing wrong with that!
I got married before I had a child, and for me it was a big deal - just seemed wrong to have a child without being married. Honestly, I never judge anyone who isn't, it was a very personal thing, and I wanted us all to have the same surname and things like that. Also, my parents would have commented on it if I had a child not being married. But I think in today's world it is absolutely okay either way!!
If I think about couples I personally know who are not married even though they have kids together - none are professional people.... and they are not married because they'd lose their single parent benefit or something. Seriously, if only people like that spent their energy on something worth while, not working out the most beneficial way of living so they still get their benefits!!! Makes me very angry, as two that I know are both lying about it. The blokes live there, they're just claiming not to and it's something to do with benefits. Of course, they say it's because they're independent women! Makes me laugh!!! 🤪😂

@IfNotNowThenWhenever you're right.

Murph mum died, my dad remarried, then he died and all accumulated assets from my mum and dad went to my dads new wife, who has now remarried.

She has written a clear will saying that if she passes then the assets inherited from my dad would pass to, me, my brothers and her son but she could change that at any point and we wouldn't know.

OP, even the Classic civil service pension doesn't require you to be married to the nominated beneficiary, since around 2001. Though the beneficiary does need to be named - a live-in partner wouldn't necessarily get the benefits of not named on the form.

My experience is that if most people in a social circle are married, people will refer to their partner as a husband/wife even if they aren't actually married. Other groups will have people refer to their partners who may actually be married to them.

I have DC from a previous relationship and if I married dp and then died his future wife and her children could get what's mine and is meant for my DC, so it's a big risk afaiak.I don't think DP would fuck over my DC but if he died everything would go to his new wife I think?

If you didn’t have a will that’s what would happen.

The biggest risk in that isn’t just that your DP could screw over your DC, but all he has to do is not have a will and that’s so so common

There was a case in a newspaper a while back of a couple who hadn’t realised the consequences of no will. She was second wife. He died and she inherited everything. She needed care due to disabilities and therefore she was prevented from giving her step-kids their share because it would have been seen as deprivation of capital. It was a really situation that highlights a good Will is such a valuable thing.

Thinking about this, I am the only one of my family (big family) who is unmarried with a child.

But looking at my friends, most of them are not married

I grew up in a very middle class family

I'm not married, earn a lot more than partner, pay all childcare, work part time, own the property we live in. I pay all holidays etc. I also carry mental load and manage household. I would be reluctant to marry as I would have to organise it all, don't really like being centre of attention and in event if divorce would owe him half of my estate.